Verbal should..

[Spike]

Verbal Defense doesn't always work on everyone, why not?

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The Dragon is Dancing

wonder of wonders, the dragon is dancing
stilling the thunder with movements so slow
silence of silence, the dragon is dancing
stilling the violence, his beauty unfolds....

Song by Jimmie Spherris 1975

[LeeDarrow]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spike:
Verbal Defense doesn't always work on everyone, why not?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SPike-sama,

Excellent question, and a complex one.

Human behavior is predicated on a whole bunch of things - some of which one can spot right away, others which cannot be known, sometimes even by the person experiencing them internally.

Verbal self defense, like any form of martial art, is not perfect. Sometimes, one can deflect an attacker with a joke, a weird response or a strong stance. Sometimes, these things will not work.

Part of successful VSD is awareness. Being aware of when it is probable that a situation will escalate into violence is critical to averting it.

When you notice the probability, ask yourself a few things -

What is the guys' motivation? What does he really want? Is it something that you can safely provide -and are willing to?

Are you willing to vacate the area? Is that possible? (the best way to avoid a fight is not to be there when it starts)

What chemicals (alcohol or drugs) does the guy appear to be acting under, if any?

Is he being egged on by "friends?" This one is critical in many instances. If you can derail HIS thought train from THEIRS, things have a lower probability of going physical.

Factors that can add to a mix include - loss or fear of loss of an object of affection (girlfriend), financial gain (robbery), attacking authority, a perceived insult (whether real or not) to someone who just likes to fight.

Once you have figured that out, you have a better chance of applying the correct techniques (if any) of VSD to defuse the situation.

But the complexity and the hidden issues that may be at play can keep VSD from working.

At which point it becomes all knuckles and know-how or beating feet out of Dodge.

Keep em coming! I love posts like this one. The more specific, the better, but the general ones also are great for stretching my mental muscles, too.

Thanks!

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

[LenTesta]

Hello Spike,
Welcome to Forums.

We all know why we are supposed to try VSD.

Most of us know HOW to apply the VSD, but no two situations are alike. By sharing real experiences with VSD we can begin to understand and document how these situations can be used by others in the future.

Tell us why you feel this way. Have you had many encounters where you have tried VSD and it did not work?

Have you had any confrontations where VSD DID work?



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Len

[Spike]

Okay, replying to the specific quotation of "Tell us why you feel this way. Have you had many encounters where you have tried VSD and it did not work?

Have you had any confrontations where VSD DID work?" from LenTesta.

What way do i feel? (I do not completely understand... what do you think i am feeling?)

Have i experienced a situation where VSD did NOT work? Yes (sadly), but it was kind of assisted by force of my advantage of being smaller [it's sometimes better to be small, can anyone tell me why ]

Now, have i experienced a situation that VSD did work... I'd have to say yes because i'm not a bully, and i'm not "too" cocky in school.. yes i'm in school any questions/opinions?

[JohnC]

Just some random thoughts on VSD - why it does and doesn't work, etc.

There exists a neurolinguistic organic brain phenomenon among us humans since we value communication and rapport linking, that an autonomic response occurs that matches our voice modulation response to the person we are speaking with. I've mentioned this before, but it still amazes me when people, teachers, etc. raise their voices to win the VSD power struggle, they are clueless when the situation escalates and the other person raises their voice. In seconds you can have 2 people yelling at each other.

Then the other factors begin to kick in, the chemical cocktail dump, the physical and body posturing, the threats ...

Takes a lot of practice, but it is amazing how a firm, clear VSD response without yelling or other aggressive connotations can resolve a situation. You almost have to tape yourself to see how you really sound, look and come across.

Why VSD doesn't work? Usually, it's when the situation has crossed a threshold where negotiation and talk have been eliminated from the interaction formula. Or 1 person decides to take it to the next level. Usually, there are many signs and opportunities to read all this, but we miss them because of the chemical dump, selective perception that tunes out what we might need to assess most, etc.


JohnC

[JonesNit]

I was not familiar with VSD, but have been a practitioner of Verbal Judo for many years. I am in law enforcement and have had only three events in eight years) where Verbal Judo has not worked. All involved the use of drugs/alcohol on the person who refused to comply or respond to the verbal judo.

The technique is outstanding and has saved many of our officers and citizens injuries by deescalating violent situations.

Verbal Judo enhanced my personal and professional life by adding a "tool" if you will, to my arsenal. I gained self control and efficiency by not becoming involved in arguments at work, or at home.

Is there a book available on VSD?

Jim

[student]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonesNit:
Is there a book available on VSD?

Jim<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Several.

The author is Suzette Haden Elgin.

Fortunately for you - not for her - they are often remaindered, so they are extra bargains.

Murray/student


[This message has been edited by student (edited November 14, 2002).]

[KerryM]

I have found a most strange thing happens to me when I need to verbally defend myself-

"In my mind's eye" the first thing/person I see is Mr. Miagi out of the Karate Kid movies- when faced with confrontation- he just braces himself- knees slightly bent- and says/does nothing until the attack happens-

kinda what happens to me "verbally" my voice gets soft- I speak slowly and clearly- and "react" the least amount as possible.

This has happened after so many LOUD arguements that I simpley asked myself exactly "what" is this loud confrontation "accomplishing".... Escalated emotions that's what- and what happens with that? Irrationalality, insults, more hurt.....

I've also discovered that sometimes- that anger or adrenaline that rushes through your system in an arguement- is usually exactly what people are looking for when they are yelling at you- by not participating (if you can help it LOL) it either calms them down- or drives them so crazy that they storm off- hopefully to cool down, and "dump" the rush- there by opening the door to rational thinking again. Hopefully.

I've found that when I feel that "rush of anger" if I allow that rush- to "keep going" right on outta there- as in gone bye bye- I can take what is being said with a grain of salt- and be ready if the situation escalates to more than verbal.

Don't know- just my experiences- what's it sound like to you guys- am I a secret (or else not so secret anymore lol) nutcase? LOL

smiling

K

[Akil Todd Harvey]

Verbal Defense doesn't always work on everyone, why not?

The reasons have been well spelled out. A problem with verbal self defense is that many confuse it with verbal sparring (verbal fighting). Verbal sparring in most cases will effectively lead to a physical confrontation, the very thing to be avoided.

Verbal self defense, like any form of martial art, is not perfect. Sometimes, one can deflect an attacker with a joke, a weird response or a strong stance. Sometimes, these things will not work.

The strong stance is technically not a verbal action and is out of the realm of verbal self defense. A strong stance can be viewed by some as being an offensive action, thus causing escalation. A strong glare by some is sufficient cause for a fight, in fact.

What is the guys' motivation? What does he really want? Is it something that you can safely provide -and are willing to?

The negotitation is something that is not well understood, especially by me. In my present area of L.A., we have some pretty aggressive pan handlers. One could easily confuse their requests for money as being demands. Blurring these lines in an attempt to intimidate thru means such as talking loud, use of aggressive speech, darting to and fro unexpectedly to see your reaction, attempting to get too close for you for shock value, to test your defenses, etc.

The negotiation is kind of a dance in which we both, BG and yourself, make your intentions known subtly. You each, with both verbal and physical (non-verbal-visual and oral) signals, indicate to each other how you might handle an altercation if necessary. Many of these signals are deebly subconscious and go deeply to the kind of self defense mindset you have developed and how bad is this bad guy anyway.

There exists a neurolinguistic organic brain phenomenon among us humans since we value communication and rapport linking...matches our voice modulation ... to the person we are speaking with.

It is quite ironic how often the BG may be more inclined to just match your resonance as to force the issue of a fight. Like maybe they are more interested in the rapport than in whether or not they get your wallet

the physical and body posturing, the threats ...

Posturing and threats, whether verbal or otherwise does not seem much like the way to defuse a tense situation, although it may be better for saving face and pride, things which may be less vital to survival than physical health.

Why VSD doesn't work? Usually, it's when the situation has crossed a threshold where negotiation and talk have been eliminated from the interaction formula.

Keep it in the negotiation if you can. Drop five bucks from your left hand while running off to the right (making a wild gesture to ensure that the bill dropping is observed by the bad guy as well as keeping your hands up in case needed), thus, possibly, you will be able to keep the hundred bucks in your pocket that u may have lost if you chose to fight this dude straight up (although you may have one and got to keep the BG's wallet).

I am in law enforcement and have had only three events in eight years) where Verbal Judo has not worked.

Awesome. Here is someone who has the force of the law to back up their words and yet the guts to see the glass as being half full when so many of their co-workers might be viewing it as being half empty. I may not have the same succes as I am not a police officer. The sight of a police officer in a lot of situations would be enough of a provocation to create an altercation in and of itself.

Is there a book available on VSD?

I read a book years ago about VSD; its approach was mostly on how to handle personal relations with co-workers, friends, acquaintances, etc to avoid verbal bullies. The main ideas of the book translate well, though, IMHO, to VSD. Just as in Martial arts, you dont use your new found verbal skills to pick on those weaker than you, but rather use them in a responsible, defensive ways to avoid the person who is trying to bait you into an argument, for example, are discussed. The main ideas that I recall and use extensively utilizing what I would have to call "depersonalizing"; don't personalize.

Dont talk about or refer to any specific person when possible. Talk in general, non-specific terms. If you are told that you look ugly, a vsd response can be, "That has been said before about me" or "I have heard that before". You are not disagreeing or agreeing. You are probably even tellign the truth. Such statements are hard to argue. Humor would not be out of the question, although as discussed in another thread, humor can be dicey if they think that you are laughing at them. Sarcasm should be avoided at all costs.

The Verbal sparring approach sounds a bit like this, "Your ugly", "Your mama", "F... U", "F... u", smack, bang, boom. Just because it is verbal, does not make it self defense

what people are looking for when they are yelling at you- by not participating (if you can help it LOL) it either calms them down- or drives them so crazy that they storm off

So true. In this case, this person is not trying to merely match your tone and pitch in an attempt to have rapport, they are looking for a fight and you are too whatever to provide them with that chance. If you wont cooperate, they aint gonna waste their time on you, they gonna go find someone that will fight with them.

Heck, In some places, that is how people get to know each other and become friends, by fighting with each other. I mean heck, who wants friends that are such sissies that they are afraid of a little altercation? (yeah, Im baiting, anybody game?)

[Van Canna]

Akil,

Yours was a great post here. One of the best about the subject.

Verbal sparring in most cases will effectively lead to a physical confrontation, the very thing to be avoided.

Very true. The problem is the “emotional highjack” that regresses the brain to primal instincts, like “ why did I say that, what came over me, the words just came out of my mouth against my better judgment”
I could have said this or that, why didn’t I?
Much like after a fight: > why didn’t I do this or that?

A strong stance can be viewed by some as being an offensive action, thus causing escalation. A strong glare by some is sufficient cause for a fight, in fact.

True. [See the Geoff Thompson thread on this]

The negotiation is kind of a dance in which we both, BG and yourself, make your intentions known subtly. You each, with both verbal and physical (non-verbal-visual and oral) signals, indicate to each other how you might handle an altercation if necessary. Many of these signals are deeply subconscious and go deeply to the kind of self defense mindset you have developed.

This is the “golden key” to survival. But something very difficult to learn under the “chemical cocktail” confusion for most of us. It takes lots of scenario training to have a chance at this.

If you are told that you look ugly, a vsd response can be, "That has been said before about me" or "I have heard that before".

A friend of mine claimed he had been able to defuse fights like this: BG

hey ass hole I am going to beat the crap out of you.

Friend:

Smiling> well, I have been had before

What do you think of that response?

[LeeDarrow]

Comments interspersed, with ** to denote where I am typing. Some snipping has also occurred where I agree with what's being said.

Akil,

Verbal sparring in most cases will effectively lead to a physical confrontation, the very thing to be avoided.

** Verbal sparring is usually the exact beginning of a physical fight, IME. The first "punch" is thrown not physically, but verbally. The "emotional hijacking" then takes place and the fists start flying. Verbal sparring is to be avoided if at all possible.

** How? Heinlein once said: "An insult is like a drink. It only effects you if you take it." Keeping that in mind makes it MUCH easier to avoid the "emotional assault" of a verbal punch.

SNIP

The negotiation is kind of a dance in which we both, BG and yourself, make your intentions known subtly. You each, with both verbal and physical (non-verbal-visual and oral) signals, indicate to each other how you might handle an altercation if necessary. Many of these signals are deeply subconscious and go deeply to the kind of self defense mindset you have developed.

** Sometimes, the "BG's" needs aren't so subtle. In some cases, he or she will TELL you, outright, exactly what they want - your wallet, for you to leave their SO alone, whatever. In such cases, VSD becomes a little easier to apply, as you know what their desired outcome is.

If you are told that you look ugly, a vsd response can be, "That has been said before about me" or "I have heard that before".

** Another VSD response might be, "Yep. No question about that! It's my curse." followed by a little laugh.

A friend of mine claimed he had been able to defuse fights like this: BG

hey ass hole I am going to beat the crap out of you.

Friend:

Smiling> well, I have been had before

** My favorite for that one is to sigh, roll my eyes a little and say, "Aw sh*t. Not AGAIN! This is the third time this month!" It usually gets the "BG" to laughing.

What do you think of that response?

** I like your response, too.

Reapectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

[Akil Todd Harvey]

Well,

It's a deep subject! (I have been told that that is a geology joke-it took me a while to understand it, though).....

Humor as a form of VSD.....there should be a thread on such a tring. Indeed, there is such a thread. If there is any form of humor almost guarenteed to be backfire in a confrontation its sarcasm...Ever since I was a kid, I have been better at verbal escalation tractics than defusing ones. Part of the reason I felt karate to be so important.

I wholeheartedly concur with the esteemed Darrow sensei regarding not "drinking the drink" of the insult.

I think folks would agree that the effective use of humor is directed at oneself or at no one in particular. By attacking yourself verbally, IMHO there is a defusing aspect as the BG is elevated and you are lowered in esteem.

The Eastern notion of saving face has some value here. If there is a dance or a negotiation, or a feeling out of each other (especialy on the part of the BG), then the BG needs to have some way of saving face. Here the BG is testing the waters to see how tough you are. Self depracating statements allow the BG to come out of the situation feeling like a winner, both to himself and to any observers. There is less of a need for the BG to demonstrated his superiority as you have gently yielded that to him.

There are some little subtle hints going on here as well. You are kind of implying that you have been in fights before and you have no romantic notions of winning each and every one of them. You are almost saying, "Yeah, you may beat me, but I am gonna get some licks in, too. You may win, in other words, but even the winner is gonna take beating, too." For the record, you want it known, that you are unfamiliar with how these things transpire.

How to save face for yourself in these situations. Your companions may be wondering why a Uechi black belt has to "back down" in the face of an obvious aggressor. Is there is anything that stands more in the way of avoiding an altercation than our own pride, ego, or social face?

How about a desire to avoid becoming familiar with the inner workings of the criminal justice system. If needed, I think the police often arrest the guy still standing when they arrive, especially since they may not be aware of who started it, not to mention the legal implications are greater not for the guy who started it, but for the one who finishes.

[Akil Todd Harvey]

Quote by Prophet Mohammad (SAWS)....

Man trips more often with his tongue than with his feet

[Spike]

Sorry to be gone for so long, i've been mostly posting elsewhere. But I thank all of you for your replies and welcome all opinions and proven theories into this thread, and to give it some more life