Dan Kumite

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dan kumite

Postby mikemurphy » Fri Jun 27, 2003 8:06 pm

Joe, Raf, & Steve,

Try this one Joe as I think it would fit your style of fighting (having seen you fight once or twice). When the person throws the round-house punch after the front kick, duck under it and slide into him with an Irmi-nage (kind of like a close-line attack). Hold onto his right arm as he goes down (not that hard to do), and then hit him with juji-gatame......Lights out. I believe this is effective and realistic at the same time. Plus it's fun!

I've also come in with an elbow (atemi waza) only to throw the person with a hip throw, shoulder throw, or a taiotoshi. Then there is a the lock of your hc==p
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dan kumite

Postby mikemurphy » Fri Jun 27, 2003 8:07 pm

Joe, Raf, & Steve,

Try this one Joe as I think it would fit your style of fighting (having seen you fight once or twice). When the person throws the round-house punch after the front kick, duck under it and slide into him with an Irmi-nage (kind of like a close-line attack). Hold onto his right arm as he goes down (not that hard to do), and then hit him with juji-gatame......Lights out. I believe this is effective and realistic at the same time. Plus it's fun!

I've also come in with an elbow (atemi waza) only to throw the person with a hip throw, shoulder throw, or a taiotoshi. Then there is a the lock of your choice.

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Postby Pomfret, Joe » Sat Jun 28, 2003 4:37 am

My issue with this technique is that it is very, very difficult to bring a person, an un co-operative dojo buddy, down with one hand behind the ankle and the other on the knee.

Steve, I laughed when I read you write " The "detractors" will warn us that we can't fight multiple opponents that way - from the ground, however I try to make it a general rule not to fight multiple opponents " I think we both agree that "they" will say anything at times in order not to expand their martial horizons.

Raf, thanks for asking. I believe that blocking the strike first then going for the leg is not the only or best choice. That particular technique is part of our heritage and Uechi history but...I'd like to see us duck the strike and shoot for the foreward leg. With the whole body on this leg it's very hard for the opponent to stay on his feet.

Thanks Mike. I had trouble trying to visualize a takedown from a "clothes-line" attack and holding onto his arm as he goes down. But I like the idea of ducking under the arm. Thank You.

C'mon...what else!!!

I would like to hear from those that believe in this technique "as-is."

Please :)
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One way that works. . .

Postby gmattson » Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:47 am

Joe: I agree that it would be very difficult to take someone down the way you described. However. . . I've never taught it that way and wouldn't advice anyone else to teach it that way either. . .

I attack the head first, trying to disrupt my opponent's balance. I then attack the hip with a downward, cutting arm (or elbow) move out of sanseiryu. (not the knee) Tough to explain with words... I'll post a couple of clips later today. . .

With your opponent off balance, this attack to the inside hip drops him/her like a sack of potatos with little chance of injury. Using this technique as part of a "shoot" (without attacking the Uke's balance) is more dangerous because more speed and power is required, increasing the likelihood of injurying to the Uke.
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explanation

Postby mikemurphy » Sat Jun 28, 2003 11:08 am

Joe,

I don't have the technological expertise to put a clip on for you, but I'll try to explain the Irmi-nage technique (clothes-line) that I was speaking of.

The uke throws the first left front kick which is blocked normally. Then the uke throws the right hook punch. Palm-heel the their attack with a left hand while ducking under it. While parrying the blow and ducking slide in to your opponant and clothes-line their neck with your right arm while pushing on their back/hip with your left hand. As you force them down (and they will go), keep hold of their right arm with your right arm so that when they are down on their back, you have the juji-gatame (I don't know the name you may use for this attack), or in other words, an elbow lock that you make as you sit down beside them with their elbow between your knees and you leg(s) over their body.

Hope that helps better.

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Regarding "clips"

Postby gmattson » Sat Jun 28, 2003 11:38 am

Mike: I bet someone in your dojo has a video camera and a computer with video input. Just film the technique and email it either to me or Scott Danzinger. We will have the clip included in our video section. Once the clip in on the web, you can simply "link" to it here.
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Postby Pomfret, Joe » Mon Jun 30, 2003 4:34 pm

I would, and those that follow this thread, would appreciate seeing the technique that Mike spoke about. Mike is this technique displayed on any Judo sites? If we could get it on the video clips section, it would be key.

George, when Dan kumite is performed at a test, and the practitioners take liberties with the ending, even if it looks nothing like Kanie's ending but looks like it could be effective, would that be "o.k?"

I can picture very traditional test board members frowning apon a deviation from the classical movements in Dan Kumite. Am I accurate here? Mike, Raff, anyone, what do you think?

Thank You,

Joe
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Dan Kumite

Postby mikemurphy » Mon Jun 30, 2003 8:19 pm

Ok guys, you are forcing me into unknown waters here. I will try to film it on Wednesday and email it to GEM sensei.

To answer your other question Joe, to my suprise, people don't mind the liberties too much. As a testing standard, we want to see a more "traditional" way for shodan, but everything up from there can do it as they like (i.e. take liberties). I've seen some good techniques and some not so good ones. The problem as I see it is that those people without a grappling/Judo/Jujitsu background fail to see the possiblities presented in some of the movements; instead, they treat it as jiyu kumite and for showing purposes, it doesn't flow too well (my opinion only). But again, I think for the most part, people in the NE region have accepted some alteration on both Dan and Seisan Bunkai.

What do others think?

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Postby f.Channell » Tue Jul 01, 2003 1:17 am

Mike,
I prefer O-soto-gari when given a strong defense to the first "traditional" takedown. If that right leg is out there far enough I sometimes go for a ko-uchigari.
All these can be found at www.judoinfo.com/techdraw.htm
Those are my 2 favorites from judo to do there. I also learned a nice one similiar to the Uechi one from Shinjo Sensei.
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Postby Pomfret, Joe » Tue Jul 01, 2003 3:20 am

Thank you Mike and Fred. I love seeing and practicing new techniques and ideas provided by experienced fighters.

But, does everyone believe that this technique is fine (it has a very, very good chance of working when you need it the most, against a stronger opponent that is resisting 100%) just as it is? I have been practicing it and teaching it for many years, yet I still don't trust it. Do you? Really??

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Dan Kumite

Postby mikemurphy » Tue Jul 01, 2003 3:31 am

Joe,

Do I really feel confident about using the last move to Dan Kumite? I do, and the reason simply has to do with physics (and of course assuming I do the move correctly).

If the attacker, no matter how big, attacks me as prescribed by the exercise, then it's a matter of timing. If I hit him before he achieves balance, then I'll take him down. At the very least, I'll knock him back quite a few feet, giving me a chance to escape. I've tried this at my dojo through the years with some very large and strong people and it has worked.

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Postby Raffi Derderian » Tue Jul 01, 2003 7:06 pm

Joe,
I love, and encourage in fact, the deviations from the traditional Dan Kumite. Repetition of the same pattern over and over again is monotonous and counter productive. You have to shake it up. I seldom see anyone doing it but I guess the trend is changing.
You have developed you own pre-arranged set. We've been doing it in the dojo and it is super. So Joe, as a guy who made a pre-arranged set, do you want people to "shake it up"? I can guess the answer.
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Postby Steve » Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:30 pm

I can guess the answer too: H*LL YES!

We each bring in different body types, different fighting styles and different levels of conditioning (ok, mine *****...). The point is to find something that works consistently for you and MAKE IT YOURS!

Watch Joe's fighters. Do they fight just like Joe? No. Watch Raffi's fighters. Do they fight just like Raffi? Not Walt! Watch Mike's fighters - any differences? Ask Dewey.

I think that this area is ripe for development and would love to see other's interpretations. Just make certain that the uke is prepared for something "out of the box." Would love to play around with this at camp w/you all.

Also - special request for Mike: A seminar on wrist and finger locks from the stand-up/clinch position would be awesome. I know that Raffi also has some from a Filipino perspective, but I'm afraid to ask him to put down his knives and sticks...... 8O

PS didn't mean to leave out Fred. Tons of respect for him - pursuing a BB in classical judo. OUCH - it hurts just remembering being tossed at Mike's dojo!
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Postby f.Channell » Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:21 am

Joe,
I see other competitors using similiar techniques with success in competition. For whatever reason it doesn't work for me so I use other techniques. Everyone has their favorites and sometimes these are not always their most successful. Of course yours is a different ballgame with the strikes, I've seen some great versions of the takedown but all with strikes which would be illegal in NHB. I think having 2-3 different takedowns in that drill, practiced randomly, is better than only having one. But then the person being taken down and their skill at breakfalling also needs to be taken into consideration.
Mike has a dynamite kyu kumite takedown, gotta check out that one Joe.
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Postby Pomfret, Joe » Wed Jul 02, 2003 4:13 am

This is super, let's keep this going.

Mike, I would very much like to see your Kyu Kumite variations. Perhaps at camp?

I agree that doing the same single technique can get a little boring and monotonous. As I have stated before, I would love to see a black-belt assessment where the students can choose from a variety of techniques when they come to various parts of a kumite-bunkai.

I have admitted that I'm not particularly fond of the Dan Kumite takedown. I just think it's a move with a low % rate of success. I think it would be fantastic for students, and teachers, to have a choice of two or three acceptable techniques to choose from at particular points, like at the Dan K. takedownand other places of our choosing.

C,mon, be truthful, wouldn't watching, assessing, and participating in Dan Kumite be much more :D ? Yes, Uechi can be :D if we allow it to be.

I know this is a thrad about a technique in Dan Kumite, but I believe it also has an underlying theme regarding our resistance and fear of change.

Sensei Mattson told me a story once of a Uechi Demonstration for some visiting Kung Fu practitioners from China. I believe he said that they were astounded at the Uechi techniques because they reminded the visiting Gentlemen of the way things used to be done many years ago.

George, please help me not butcher this story.
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