Dan Kumite

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Postby Pomfret, Joe » Wed Jul 02, 2003 4:30 am

Raffi, shake it the hell up. I would love to see the ways your creativity, expertise, and personal point of view of self defense come accross in the "ground fighing kumite."

For those of you that would like to see this kumite, George Mattson sells it on DVD here on this web site.

By the way Raff, I will not be able to make it in July. I'm very sorry.

Joe
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WEll?

Postby Pomfret, Joe » Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:51 am

So, I asked once before and only got one person to claim that the the Dan Kumite Takedown is a technique to have faith in.

Only one? One person likes the technique and the rest don't. Yet we still practice and teach it over and over over and over again.

You may want to respond by saying, "I do it all the time and it works Joe Pomfret :evil: !" Then I will ask you, "When was the last time you did the classical Dan Kumite takedown outside of practicing it during Dan Kumite? Have you ever done it successfuly is sparring or in an actual self preservation situation?"
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Postby JoeLauzon » Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:18 am

You have developed you own pre-arranged set. We've been doing it in the dojo and it is super. So Joe, as a guy who made a pre-arranged set, do you want people to "shake it up"? I can guess the answer.



Joe P wouldnt be happy with me if he didnt like changes in that set. We were always incorporating extra and more complex movements into the set. The actual submissions are all in their to take up the place of a finish and add variety. The same goes for the takedowns. The whole point behind the set was to encourage variety, I think. You dont have to follow the set exactly, just dont practice one takedown and one finish fifty times and think it will always be there. It wont. You need ATLEAST a few options.
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Hope to have that video clip up this week.

Postby gmattson » Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:16 am

Ovi remembered to bring his camera Saturday and we video taped a couple of my favorite take-down moves.

Earlier, someone mentioned "creativity" during the dan test. IUKF encourages "innovation" in dan kumite, but doesn't expect anything spectacular for the shodan test. At the higher ranks we require that all the moves be realistic and practical. It is crazy to expect all people to favor the same moves/techniques.

True. . . not everyone will use some of their Uechi-ryu in an actual fight. On the other hand, with the lessons Joe P. gave us relating to the "shoot", I was able to incorporate the modified dan kumite takedown into a very workable "shoot".

And if I can do it, so can you everyone else.
GEM
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pictures of dan takedowns

Postby mikemurphy » Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:55 pm

Sorry folks,

I tried to take some pictures of the takedown, but my camera died. I will try again this week. Be patient. :-)

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Postby Pomfret, Joe » Wed Jul 09, 2003 3:21 pm

Wow, lets see these pictures!! I will try to enter some also.
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videos finally

Postby mikemurphy » Thu Jul 17, 2003 2:35 am

Well folks, I put down 4 easy scenarios to the takedown on point six of Dan. Since my camera only gives you 5 seconds, I started the pictures at the punch and not the kick. Sensei Mattson is going to post them on this forum as I don't know how to do that yet.

The four scenarios include ducking the punch and keeping the punch in front of you. The other two include two throws (taiotoshi & seonage) with a ude garame lock.

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Clips will be posted today

Postby gmattson » Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:07 am

I won't have time to set them up this morning, but will get to them later today. Also, my clips are with Scott, who will be posted them soon.
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Postby Norm Abrahamson » Thu Jul 17, 2003 6:26 pm

I am a student and teacher at Mike Murphy's dojo and he encourages experimentation. I have been teaching Kyu Kumite with various endings (with Mike's permission) and most students seem to like it. To me it's as much of a mental exercise as a physical one. As soon as you open up your mind to different possibilities, the combinations are nearly endless.

Sincerely,
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Postby JoeLauzon » Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:12 am

From a grappling perspective, I notice a few things.

#1. I think If I am making the effort to get behind someone like that, I would not try to take them to the ground with a clothesline type move. I think it would work well to secure a rear naked choke, and bring them to the ground from there. The other thing I notice is how the arm pops right up for you to go for the armlock. If someone is taking my legs out like that, my arm is going to the ground to brace my fall. I dont think my arm would ever go UP into the air like that.

#2. I like this one more than the first. I think tripping them down and then going for the armlock is very good. A change I would try, would be to hold onto their opposite shoulder/neck/collar to keep tight to them, and I would try to bring them down in more of a counter clockwise downward spiral. Instead of sending them straight back, trip their near leg, and push them to your left so they almost pivot on the leg you are tripping. I notice in the video how the guy in whites far leg collapses. But why? I dont think most people have enough force to clothesline someone who is standing and knock them off their feet, which is why I like the pivotting them on their near leg. I like this one though.

#3 and #4. (I think these are the same?) This one Im not sure about. Is that a wrist lock? I like the overall idea of it, but what about changing that up into a Kimura for the finish? Instead of finishing off to the side, move around to the North-South position, so you are lined up directly with their head. It would start out and be the exact same, just a different submission from a slightly better position, in my opinion. This one is good as is, I just prefer the kimura to a wrist lock.

Some of these are just preference and another option to try, and decide for yourself what you like better. Maybe try them and let me know what you think.

Its Awesome to see people working on more grappling stuff. Only good comes from experiementing! Keep it up.
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grappling

Postby mikemurphy » Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:39 pm

Joe,

Thanks for the comments. Let me try to explain some things and to respond to your suggestions and comments.


#1 A hadaka jime (rear naked choke) is a great option here, I just chose not to do one. I could have gone into a number of different chokes (jime waza) but decided for the throw (nage waza) and the cross lock (juji gatame). But either way. As for the hand not being there, if you do the move correctly, your opponant's arm will be there. Let me explain. After ducking the hook punch, I step in for the iriminage (clothesline). If you notice my left hand, you'll see that it is on my opponent's right hip. This hand will push away from me while my right arm is bringing my opponent closer to me. Because the body will go where the head goes, his arm will be right beside him and me, making it easy to grab and control. You have to remember that your arm may be trying to brace your fall because hopefully you have been trained how to break your falls, but when a person is clotheslines properly, his arm can't go down.

#2 Is exactly like the first move other than it doesn't duck the punch. What is missing here (and I should have added it) was the atemi (distraction). I should have done something before the iriminage throw. However, the advantage to this move is that by taking his arm to the outside, it opens his body to many techniques as either atemi or the actual move.

#3 & 4 are different moves as they are two different throws (nage). The first one is a taoitoshi, which basically traps your opponent's right leg, in this case, by locking his knee. To be more "jutsu" about it, I would have hit his knee with my calf and give it a good pop. The actual throw is a whipping motion from right to left going around the leg. It is not a "hip" throw. #4 is a seonage (shoulder throw). After stopping the attack, and giving a good distraction, I let the person fall to my back, where I use my hip to take him over my bicep (shoulder throw is a misnomer). The osae waza that I use is called a ude garame. This is where I use both hands to lock his wrist. Believe me when I say this, but if I lock this position, I don't have to worry where your other shoulder is. I could have done other things from that position, but chose to show that one. I'm not sure what a kimura is, so perhaps you could explain?

Thanks again for the reply Joe and keep those suggestions coming and keep on training!

mike
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Postby JoeLauzon » Fri Jul 18, 2003 7:58 pm

Like I said, Im just throwing out some options Id like to do from there. Yours work as well as mine I am sure. A kimura from that position looks like this....

Image

You can find the details and the way its set up in BJJ at: http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/kimura/

I dont do my Kimura exactly like that page, but that is the general setup for it. I have a few modifications I make to it.
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kimura vs Ude Garame

Postby mikemurphy » Fri Jul 18, 2003 9:11 pm

Joe,

Gosh, I wish I knew how to put up pictures. :-)

You're right, it's the same technique, the only difference is that you are holding the straight wrist where I am holding a bent one. Both extrememly effective.

mike
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Postby JoeLauzon » Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:09 pm

Yea, I just prefer being directly lined up with their head, gives me a few options.
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