Dan Kumite

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Postby Scott Danziger » Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:40 pm

Here is the Dan Kumite takedown Sensei sent me to piece together.

This is the WMV version (smaller and almost as clear as an mpg). You'll need Windows media player 7 or higher to play it. I recommend their latest version 9.

http://fileserver.uechi-ryu.com/videos/dk_takedown.wmv

This version (350kps) and a 56ks and a 120 kps version is now posted on the video site in the training & technique section. (Link Below)
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Postby Steve » Sun Jul 20, 2003 1:57 pm

Mike - AWESOME!!!
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Postby Pomfret, Joe » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:36 pm

Mike, awesome. Thank you very much for coming through with posting these techniques and making this thread much more interesting.

I will soon post some endings that I like also.

Maybe those that see your work will try practicing these techniques thus making themselves more well rounded as a martial artist, and it will also make practicing Dan Kumite much more fun and interesting.

:?: Mike, can your students perform these techniques on a non-compliant partner that is much bigger or stronger stronger than themselves?
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reality

Postby mikemurphy » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:58 pm

Joe,

I think that's where everyone gets into big trouble. Can it be done with a non-compliant partner. My intuition says yes, but it won't look as pretty (you know what I mean). Also, it's hard to practice that since both uke and tori both know the movement in advance, how can we really be non-compliant or too compliant?

My answer is that we have to use human intuition to answer the question. For example, is the punch something we might see? Answer=yes! I've seen a thousand hook punches in my life from "non-believers." So, assuming the person throws a right hook punch (95%+ people out there are right-handers), would I be able to duck under it? block it? turn around on it after a distraction? The answers are all yes? But the intangible is what your opponant's reaction will be then.

What do you think?
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Postby JoeLauzon » Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:48 pm

I think that's where everyone gets into big trouble.

Thats not a good start to talking about a technique you are trying to teach when asked if it actually works.


Can it be done with a non-compliant partner. My intuition says yes, but it won't look as pretty (you know what I mean). Also, it's hard to practice that since both uke and tori both know the movement in advance, how can we really be non-compliant or too compliant?

How about trying it on someone who doesnt know the movement. Get a third person, tell them to throw a hook punch, do it and see if you can pull it off.

My answer is that we have to use human intuition to answer the question. For example, is the punch something we might see? Answer=yes! I've seen a thousand hook punches in my life from "non-believers." So, assuming the person throws a right hook punch (95%+ people out there are right-handers), would I be able to duck under it? block it? turn around on it after a distraction? The answers are all yes? But the intangible is what your opponant's reaction will be then.

This is the big question, go and do what I said above, and let us know. Knowing how your opponent will react is what makes a move work or have it fail, if the opponent can be MADE to do what you want. Dont rely on something that they might do.

How about taping the first time you do it to someone new? So we can see?
--Joe Lauzon
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does it work

Postby mikemurphy » Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:29 pm

Joe L.

Please do not take this the wrong way, as I don't know you or your level of experience or training (although if you are with Joe Pomfret, then you have a great base).

This is exactly the right way to start this off. Why? Because as teacher with a lot of years under the belt, I know you have to be honest with your students or they'll know you are just BS(ing) them. Teachers often times make remarks like..."This is what will happen when you do this or that..." That statement is simply a lie, because we can never know how a person will react. I've seen people get knocked out with punches that wouldn't hurt a flea, yet on the other hand, seen guys in bars get hit constantly without blinking an eye. The fact of the matter if you could get one guy up there in class willing to take a beating, come up with the conclusion you thought (like it worked), but that wouldn't be viable results. WE, as martial artists, should not use definitives when discussing techniques, especially if you are going to be teaching.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that's where everyone gets into big trouble.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


<Thats not a good start to talking about a technique you are trying to teach when asked if it actually works. >




Where are you going to find a person that is going to allow himself to be hurt? Read my comments from the past. Doing the distraction is half the battle on the last two movements. Is my unknowing uke going to allow himself to be hit in the throat or some other weak spot on the body? And without hitting him there, how do I get the true reaction of his body? Human anatomy and human nature tells me how a person SHOULD react if I hit him a certain way, so in that way, I can say my technique will work. If you know of people who would be willing to subject themselves to possible injury and sign a waiver for legal reasons, then I suggest you give it a shot. I'm not going to do it.

<How about trying it on someone who doesnt know the movement. Get a third person, tell them to throw a hook punch, do it and see if you can pull it off.>


If you want a definitive answer, you need to research with a wide sampling of people under different conditions. Finding one person who proves your move works or it doesn't means absolutely nothing, from a dojo standpoint or a street standpoint. Think of it this way. When you or Joe Pomfret go into the NHB matches and you hit a person with a technique (kick, punch, or lock, etc) does it have the same effect everytime? Does the person react the same everytime? Are you successful everytime? And when you answer those questions, ask yourself why (or why not).



<This is the big question, go and do what I said above, and let us know. Knowing how your opponent will react is what makes a move work or have it fail, if the opponent can be MADE to do what you want. Dont rely on something that they might do. >

Again, don't take any of my comments personally or as an attack on you, Joe P, or your training, it's simply my viewpoint on your comments. Knowing how to teach techniques safely is paramount if you wish to keep a dojo open. Knowing a what people most likely will do when a technique is delivered is important as well. Some people, like police, bouncers, NHB fighters like yourself, have a different perspective to many techniques, but when you think of what I said above, I would think you would only concur with me and how people react differently. But I won't put words in your mouth.


Good Training,

mike
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Postby JoeLauzon » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:54 pm

I do think people react differently, but it looked to me like the person being "clotheslined" was helping the person doing the technique. I do not think that anyone falling backward would not try in the least bit to get their hands/arms/elbows to the ground to try and brace themselves. I just dont see someone falling over backwards with their arm out straight up in the air.

Now when I say to try this movement on someone who doesnt know it, I dont mean to hurt them. I mean to go through the movement at the same speed with someone who doesnt know it. Duck their hook punch, and clothesline and knock them over. Does their arm go up in the air?

Human anatomy and human nature tells me how a person SHOULD react if I hit him a certain way, so in that way, I can say my technique will work.
This is the only thing I am questioning. How many times have you been on the street and clotheslined someone in that way, and had their arm go up like that? Its human nature to try and catch yourself and brace yourself. I dont think someone arm would go up like that even one time in twenty. I just dont see it happenning/working.

Good conversation though :)
--Joe Lauzon
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Postby f.Channell » Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:45 am

What mike did in his videos which were great was he had two rear throws and two forward throws. When someone strongly resists a rear throw it sets up a nice forward throw since they lean strongly in that direction to resist it.
The #2 one mike did is similiar to how I handle a strong defense in the typical uechi takedown. I sweep my leg up more and usually opt for a punch rather than the armbar unless they are a grappler.
If you have ever been tossed hard in competition with #4 like I have you know the armbar or follow up techniques are almost not needed because of the impact, especially if it were on the street.

I like that kimura technique, joe P. taught me that one.

One thing we have to ask ourselves on these is who we are fighting.
A drunk in a bar who hasn't had a fight since elementary school is going down with any of these.
A season grappler who competes regularly is going to be a lot tougher to bring down, and more techniques are going to be needed.
Fred
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Postby Norm Abrahamson » Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:26 pm

Joe:

Calling the Irimine Nage (entering throw), a "clothesline" technique is a bit misleading. It's not simply a straight arm across the throat as in "The Longest Yard". (A great fun movie if you haven't seen it.) The arm around the neck hooks in which twists and off-balances the victim into an awkward position. The low hand in the victim's lower back or hip also pushes and further twists the person being thrown. The inside hand stays up where it is easy to grab because the person being thrown is being twisted in that direction. The person beign thrown will instinctively use teh outside hand/arm to break the fall.

You'll get plenty of chances to play with it at the camp and decide for yourself if you like it.

Sincerely,
Norm Abrahamson[/i]
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Postby Pomfret, Joe » Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:20 pm

I believe the main issue my fiesty young student, Joe Lauzon, has with what he saw is that the clips were very rehearsed and that the smaller person getting tossed around was 100% compliant. That's just the way it has to be though if we decide to use these rehearsed two person sets.

As Mike sensei alluded to, the average student likes to use these rehearsed sets because they are safe and he/she can get a pretty good workout practicing them. This I understand.

Joe Lauzon has never trained in a system that is reliant on forms and rehearsed two person sets where the outcome is always pre-deturmined. Except from practicing a new technique, he only trains (grappling-Striking) against an opponent that is resisting against him 100%. So you can imagine what he thinks when he sees one person letting another person do whatever he wants without a struggle. I can understand his comments regarding the clips.

It has to do with trusting that the technique really works or not. Some people are just not impressed with one person having free will on a 100% compliant partner. There will always be doubt about a technique if one cannot prove that it can be done to a resisting, larger, person a large majority of the time.

The next question should be, "Can you do any better?" I will get to it as soon as possible. Right now I am training very hard for an "NHB" fight that will take place this Saturday night. The outcome of this fight is not pre-deturmined :D

Great, great topic. I hope noone is offended. I believe we are currently experiencing a transition phase in the way we view and practice Uechi Ryu based training. I know I am.

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Postby JoeLauzon » Wed Jul 23, 2003 7:41 pm

I believe the main issue my fiesty young student, Joe Lauzon, has with what he saw is that the clips were very rehearsed and that the smaller person getting tossed around was 100% compliant.


This is it. Sorry if Im coming off strong. Just trying to explain what Im seeing, maybe without thinking about the way its being done.
--Joe Lauzon
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Postby Pomfret, Joe » Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:03 pm

Joe, don't stop.

As long as your words are not insulting, please, say what is on your mind. Just like when you tell me in person the way you think a technique I teach will work or not or the way it can be improved apon.

We are not above an "outsider of Uechi Ryu" telling us what they think about our training practices.

:idea:
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Postby JoeLauzon » Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:26 pm

Knowing how to teach techniques safely is paramount if you wish to keep a dojo open.


I agree that doing techniques safely is VERY important, but techniques that you feel will work when they count is equally important. Dont rely on the attacker to do exactly what you want. I could work out a set with my friend where I do jumping jacks and clap my hands, and on the third clap he falls down. Is it safe? Yes! Is it gonna work, no way!

I think I just like my training to be flirting with the line of danger a little more to train at a higher level or reality. Is what I do in training more dangerous than what you do? Im sure it is. But I learn all the possible reactions of my opponent by field testing when he resists 100%. So based on this practice and experience, I can try to help others with similiar situations.

If you want a definitive answer, you need to research with a wide sampling of people under different conditions.


And this is what BJJ is ALL about, working your technique against someone who is resisting 100%. You just stop when they say to, because at that point, they will be facing some serious damage to themselves if we continue. Now I know you cant afford to go all out 100% in Uechi in practice, it would result in too many injuries. But in Grappling, you can go 100%, its what I do everytime I grapple. I give it 100%. Im just trying to translate it to help you make things better. There is ALWAYS room for improvement.

I just want to see stuff improve.....your stuff, Joe's Stuff, My stuff. I LOVE when someone shows me a better way to do something. And I have the benefit of trying it out 100% to see which I like better, and which has better results for me. I just want you to have the same option, and try it out under some more realistic circumstances.
--Joe Lauzon
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stuff

Postby mikemurphy » Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:35 am

Joe & Joe,

Joe thanks for the comments and good luck on Saturday Night. I'm 100% sure you will give your best and come out victorious! :-)

Joe,

Don't worry about offending anyone. Your comments are from the heart and are only relaying what you have experienced in your training. I was just hoping you wouldn't take my comments wrong.

Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled program. I'm glad you practice your BJJ at 100%, but I have to ask you what you mean by 100%. If you are going to be at the camp, we can talk about it and get a better idea about what you mean. How's that sound?

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Postby JoeLauzon » Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:56 am

Ill make it to the camp if I can, and we can talk about it more then.

I mean we practice against someone resisting 100%. If I am in some type of competition, I am not holding anything back, same goes for my opponent. In Sparriing and competition in Uechi, I dont think you have two guys, fighting as hard as they can. In that type of striking environment, someone would get hurt too easily. Now on the other hand, Grappling can be at 100% force. I can use all my strength, speed and technique to try and win, just as if it were a real fighting situation. Anything that I can do in a grappling tournament, I can do in a NHB environment as well. Why? Because in both cases, someone is fighting me 100% and doing absolutely everything in their power to beat me.

I am sure that whether I am wrestling with a friend at a cook out, or Im in a grappling tournament, in a NHB fight, or just in a fight on the street, people are going to be resisting me 100%. They are not pulling any punches so to speak. So I basically mean how much force they are going to be using to attack and defend. And if someone is doing everything they can in practice, and you can still beat them, you can beat them when it really counts.
--Joe Lauzon
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