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Postby mikemurphy » Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:57 pm

Joe,

I don't doubt that you go all out, but do you really???? Why can't two karateka who are sparring go all out? Because there are rules to the match. The, i think, goes for NHB fighting. Even the ultimate fighting contests that the Gracie family hosts has rules. So, in essence, because of rules, you have to hold back. Don't you? BTW, what are the rules to the NHB contests that you and Joe P. fight in?

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Postby JoeLauzon » Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:59 pm

When we grapple, we do everything we can. Full Force, 100%. We are not pulling anyhting, or holding anything back.

NHB has very limited rules. Pretty much, rules are, No fingers into any orifice (eyes mouth, anywhere else), and no biting. Everything else is a go. And most of that stuff wouldnt do you much good to win the fight, just cause damage that would not have any effect on the fight. You are not going to win the fight from biting, but we also dont want anyone to leave the ring with a fewer number of fingers than when they go in. So thats just common sense stuff. Punching, Kicking, Kneeing....most anyhthing you can think of is a go. There are a few exceptions, like no kicking a downed opponent in the head, because it causes too much trauma with so much upward force.
--Joe Lauzon
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Postby Norm Abrahamson » Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:32 pm

Joe,

Those rules sound pretty wide open. Do they allow finger and wrist locks/breaks? Striking with closed fist, shoken, fingertips? Strikes to the back of the neck and spine? Does a lock have to be applied in a manner that allows a competitor an opportunity to tap out or can it be immediately used with full power? Kicks to the knee?

You've piqued my curiosity.

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Postby JoeLauzon » Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:25 pm

Those rules sound pretty wide open. Do they allow finger and wrist locks/breaks?
No small joint manipulation. We dont need broken fingers.

Striking with closed fist
Yup

shoken, fingertips?
Not sure why you would want to strike with your fingers instead of your first, and dont know what a shoken is.

Strikes to the back of the neck and spine?
Not the spine or base of skull

Does a lock have to be applied in a manner that allows a competitor an opportunity to tap out or can it be immediately used with full power?
Full power

Kicks to the knee?
Im not sure, I think its good though.
--Joe Lauzon
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Postby mikemurphy » Thu Jul 24, 2003 8:11 pm

Joe,

Thanks for the rules update on NHB, and again, I truly believe you go 100% within the rules (if I read you correctly). But doesn't that mean that because there are limitations to your fight, that you can't properly judge your techniques and ability. For example, in a "real" fight, I would eye gouge, bite (if I had to), use small joint manipulation, hit to base of skull & spine, and of course, grap a handful of groin if necessary to get my self out of that situation. But how can you practice that? From what you've said, NHB (which would by far be the closest we have) doesn't allow you that opportunity? So where does that leave our training?

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Postby Steve » Thu Jul 24, 2003 8:30 pm

No shokens - wouldn't be as effective in the gloves anyway. No bushikens (spelling?) to the throat. No knees to the head, back, etc. Can use knees when standing up (to legs, stomach) and on the ground (to sides). No elbow strikes. Add full knee strikes and full elbow strikes and it's Muay Thai - throws, takedowns, kicks, punches, knees, elbows.

As stated before, no small joint manipulation, no "fish hooks" (one of my favorites!) or rattle snakes (reaching over the head and inserting the first two fingers in the opponents nose and pulling back!!!), no "intentional" open hand eye strikes.

There are a bunch of rules. However, it really is the best place to see what works and what doesn't.

Crap, just eliminating the option of a knee strike to the head takes away a big defense for one of this debate's participants who tends to dive for his takedowns!!!! (meant in good humor - no slight).

Edit - also don't believe that a kick to the knee as we train would be legal. Can't go out there to intentionally break the opponent's knees, elbows, neck, wrist, ankle, fingers, etc. although accidents do happen.
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Postby JoeLauzon » Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:23 pm

Do you honestly want to rely on eye gouges and the like in a fight? I know I sure dont. You take someone who knows how to eye gouge, and you set them up against a NHB fighter and let them do what they want, anything goes. Just because it is against the rules, doesnt mean we dont defend against it. We dont do it as a practice, but we dont leave ourselves wide open for it either. We are protecting against any of that becasue in all honesty, people do break rules sometimes. So we are ready for it, and I dont think that any of that stuff you mentioned would hinder me all that much.

Small join manipulation delays a submissions, but it doesnt compromise your position, so thats not a big deal either. The only bad part about that would be that practicing those moves, over time would become quite hazardous to the health of your hands over time. I do not think it would be a problem in that particular fight, and would serve you very little in a fight.

So basically, it isnt allowed, but we do practice staying away from positions you would find that stuff being used against you. These particular things we dont practice 100%, but staying away from those situations take a big step in defense against them.
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Postby Steve » Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:16 am

Joe L. - no slight intended. Just stating the rules. I think that you guys push the limit and should be admired for doing so. That's why I included this:

"There are a bunch of rules. However, it really is the best place to see what works and what doesn't."

But to answer your other question, yes. Uechi-ryu is infamous for its elbow strikes, eye strikes and throat strikes (bushikens). That is what we train for, hence the questions from Mike, etc. The truth is, we CAN'T train using these techniques at 100%. Wouldn't be any training partners left except Josh Wiseman!!! So we have to train "simulating" the techniques and by using BOB bags or people in protective gear (Blauer's highgear). The fact remains, however, that most of us really don't know if it will work. Only one way to find out - and it's illegal!!!
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Postby JoeLauzon » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:16 am

Yea Steve, I agree about all of that.

I just feel more comfortable doing techniques that I have personal experience to know they work, not saying it SHOULD work. This way, if I ever get in a fight and get beaten down, its my own fault, and Im not pointing fingers screaming "You said this would work!"

I like to see and experience things for myself, thats all. And I have spent quite a bit of time on the mat, so Id like to try and share some of what ive gained from it, and point others in the direction to try it for themselves and give me feedback.
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Postby mikemurphy » Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:02 am

Joe,

Again, there is the question. You would rather use techiniques you know that work. Do you know they would work against everyone? And if they don't, does that put a negative on your training? or on you? I don't think so, but I'd like to see your answer.

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Postby JoeLauzon » Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:17 am

Through experience of people resisting 100%, I know which types of moves work against different types of people. I am not going to try a neck crank on someone who is much much larger. However, Id have no problem using a choke or a shoulder lock. And I have gained experience in understanding which positions are beneficial against different types of people.

For instance, most people wouldnt think its easier to hold someone larger down. However, if you know how, it can be much easier to hold someone down who may be big and strong rather than someone who is smaller and faster.

Now let me ask you, how many of your techniques do you have experience using against someone who is not cooperating the slightest bit, and have allowed you to end the fight?
--Joe Lauzon
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Postby mikemurphy » Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:28 am

Since I do not NHB fight, nor train for that, when we freestyle randori in class, it's against people who resist 100%. So I guess the question would be whether or not I have particular moves, that I feel comfortable with. I suppose I do, although I don't differentiate between bigger or smaller people. I guess I just don't train that way. But it's as you say, it's depends on the person you are fighting, just like sparring in Uechi.

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Postby Rick Wilson » Sat Aug 02, 2003 5:03 am

Joe:

“The other thing I notice is how the arm pops right up for you to go for the armlock. If someone is taking my legs out like that, my arm is going to the ground to brace my fall. I dont think my arm would ever go UP into the air like that…

I do not think that anyone falling backward would not try in the least bit to get their hands/arms/elbows to the ground to try and brace themselves. I just dont see someone falling over backwards with their arm out straight up in the air.”

(Small point, I agree with Norm that the move was not a clothesline and has distinct differences.)

As to how the person goes down from a true clothesline and that arm movement when there is 100% on both sides: The legs are not taken out. A clothesline done full force will drive the person off their feet by knocking their head and shoulders back as they are driven horizontal and down faster than their arms can move. The arms, being lighter than the body, will come down slower thus appearing to “lift” up. In addition the driving of the head and shoulders "up and over" does add a “lift” effect. Remember too that a clothesline is a strike and does a nice “stun” job.

I know this from doing the move a few times to others in football way back in my high school days. 100% resistance from the party. In football you also usually have the added inertia of the guy moving foreword that adds to the effect.

I also know this from the embarrassing incident of running in the dark and getting taken out by a real clothesline. :oops: Truly “clotheslined.”

So, yes the arm will be left up and available. Although there was no arm lock follow up in my football games. :D

Since I had done the clothesline for real I thought I would throw my two cents in I hope you guys don’t mind.
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