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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:14 am 
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You can get choked while on your back as well as on all fours 360 different ways. This is why Uechi should focus on not going down at all.

The same is also true of arm locks.

And while you are fumbling around doing these locks and chokes someone slips you a knife in the side.

This is another reason Uechi should focus on not going down.

We have an excellent defensive stance in Sanchin, I use it all the time in tournaments to prevent being thrown.

I do business with a woman who was jumped by 9 teenagers last year with bats chains and knives. She managed to stay on her feet. In spite of being stabbed 3 times.
This was her key to survival she told me.
Certainly Uechi students can stay up 99% of the time.
Fred

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 Post subject: grappling
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 2:25 am 
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No offense intended here, but I think people are missing the point a little. The question is not whether we all agree that some form of jujitsu/grappling is great for the practitioner to become better all around. I think that is a given, just as I think just being a grappler misses the whole picture. The question is should we make it a test requirement to which (as you can tell by now) I am against.

Some of you seem to think that just a little knowledge is a good thing. Well, that may be true on the street when you are doing something for real, but in the dojo where control should mean something, unless you are training on a regular basis, you are simply taking the risk that someone is going to hurt someone. It could come from falling and hitting the ground, or applying a choke and crushing a windpipe. Do you want to be that person? I don't think so. Any of you instructors know that the hardest person to fight in your dojo is the white belt beginner. Why? Because they have no sense of control yet. Their technique is wild and unhindered. More injuries occur fighting them. This goes for karate or jujitsu. So what is the difference here? I don't care if you have a 100th degree black belt in Uechi-ryu, if you are studying another art, you are a white belt again. Do you want to be the partner of one of these people who understand "just enough?" I don't!



As for standards, I have to disagree with you completely Joe. There are standards for anything you want to make them for. Without them, how do you judge your ability and competency? On win and loss records alone? I suppose even BJJ has standards; otherwise, how would they award rank in their art? In order to judge the technique(s) of the grappling or jujitsu, we must apply standards to them. There must be some form of rubric in order to give a pass/fail. Without it, you are doing nothing other than proving what a great fighter you are (or aren't in some cases), and if that is all we are testing, then I don't want any part of it. If budo has taught me anything, it has taught me that there is so much more to things than meet the eye.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:28 am 
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Quote:
Some of you seem to think that just a little knowledge is a good thing. Well, that may be true on the street when you are doing something for real, but in the dojo where control should mean something, unless you are training on a regular basis, you are simply taking the risk that someone is going to hurt someone. It could come from falling and hitting the ground, or applying a choke and crushing a windpipe. Do you want to be that person? I don't think so.


This is a sobering thought...

One question: would our dojo liability policy cover an injury from a grappling/move/ choke __ as opposed to a karate type injury?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:38 am 
Just a thought but dont additional rules and tests take away from freedom ? , seems to me you need a way of recognising individual speciality as a positive and contributory factor in a ranking system .

would there be anyway to acknowledge such specialitys and skills as a contributing factor to someones advancement in rank ? . It seems to broaden the scope of what a rank really is but diversity leads to strength .

This is what I`d personally like to see in any martial arts organisation id want to be a part in .

Or does diversity present to much of a risk of diluting the art ? .

I guess its the cups half empty or full argument .

hope this isnt out of place just thought it might add a few ideas .


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 6:53 pm 
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I love the fact that this converstion is going on. It shows a willingness to incoporate effective ground fighting skills into a curriculum that is a striking art. Whether or not these skills become part of the testing procedure seems to be in debate. What doen't seem to be in debate is that they can be an important part of the deveolpment of a martial artist.

I have seen and have taken part in Joe's ground sequences. They are valuable drills for the beginner and can be used in part or in whole as exercises to drill holds, escapes, and submissions. This is a great place to start but.

My concerns would be will learning these drills show testable proficiency in executing these techniques....Will this turn into another kumite debate....Will grappling drills replace free flow grappling randori (sparring) as the true measure of effectiveness.

Mike and Joe both comented on the presence or absence of standards in grappling. While a "Standard for Excellence" is a huge expectation there is a lot of room for individuality from person to person and school to school. Which set of standards would be stressed? Would a closed tight guard that stressed submissions be the norm while on the bottom, or would a sweeping offbalancing guard that stressed position change be the norm?

I don't want to be accused of just posing problems so here is my suggestion. It is a long term solution that should be considered before any Uechi instructor begins teaching let alone testing students in grappling. Get on the mat and put a couple of HUNDRED hours in with guys like Joe, Joe, and Andy at Reality. If thats not possible find a competent instructor for a series of long term private lessons. Without the backround of rolling on the mat with all of the successes and setbacks that go with it you will never feel comfortable and confident enough with ground fighting skills, and you'll have more questions than answers.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 7:22 pm 
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JDeLuca wrote:
While a "Standard for Excellence" is a huge expectation there is a lot of room for individuality from person to person and school to school. Which set of standards would be stressed? Would a closed tight guard that stressed submissions be the norm while on the bottom, or would a sweeping offbalancing guard that stressed position change be the norm?


You put this much better than I did... its one thing to undertand it should be incorporated, but do you have enough competent instructors who could teach it so it is both safe, and effecitve in free sparring?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2004 8:46 pm 
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I don't mean to be disrespectful regarding a sport I know so little about, but if we try to keep things in perspective, I don't see this question as being out of order.

A few of us post as though everyone out here are 20-30 year old professional athletes instead of the average student most dojo see.

When I began this thread I deliberatlly used the genric term of "ground fighting" and "grappling". Instead of selecting any specific style of ground fighting, I suggested we look into using the very basic program Joe Pomfet created, which targeted "stand-up" martial artist for the course.

If we don't institute this "familiarity" program, very few Uechi students will break out of their cocoon and bother to give any thought to the subject of ground fighting.

We have many experts out there who believe such a familiarity program is possible and worthwhile. Dave Young and Roy Bedard teache such courses to police departments and military groups all over the world. They have said that most of these officers will get no more than a weekend of training a year. Dave admits that is would be nice for these men and women to receive more training, but in his words... "something is better than nothing."

I don't see the testing part of my proposal being very difficult to implement. The purpose is not to witness a competition match, but an ability to execute six or seven basic excapes and holds from the ground. . . a familiarity with a subject. . .

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:34 pm 
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There certainly hasn't been any disrespect in this thread that I have seen. Just the opposite, I see this thread as a healthy awareness of ground fighting need and effectiveness.

Creating a program to make Uechi students more familiar with the ground is certainly a do-able thing. I mentioned in a previous post that peple planning to instruct should spend a couple of hundred hours training. I certainly meant this for Uechi instructors not the average student that is training a couple of nights a week.

A couple of HUNDRED hours may seem like a lot, but this has already been accomplished by some of Uechi Ryu's top New England instructors. Joe P being the most notable, as well as Steve Perry, Bobby Spoon, Fred Channell. Gary Khoury one of the busiest New England Instructors is now training regularly on the mat. If these full time instructors can find the time....

A basic program does not mean a simple or less advanced program. Many vale tudo fighters have a much more bare boned approach to ground fighting and use far fewer techniques than do competitive jiu jitsu players. It has been said that Rickson Gracie is so good because his basic techniques are so advanced.

Sounds familiar to Uechi Ryu philosophy to me.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 1:33 pm 
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When I taught a groundfighting program at another persons school the class initially had 7-10 students. The next week it had 4-5.
The following week it had 2-3. The following week 0.
The same thing happened at "friday night with the grapplers" which Joey taught and got me hooked in the first place.
The reason is because it is physically tough and a real tough aerobic workout. And many injuries occur.
I haven't seen many school owners other than myself posting, but as a warning to them, this can and will happen to you.
Why can't an instructor recommend to a student at nidan or sandan to go crosstrain at a grappling school. Then this student can bring his passbook to his test with all his classes marked and it can be accepted that he has done his homework.
This is a basic requirement in some Japanese Jujitsu systems that rank in Judo must also be acquired above a certain dan rank.
Perhaps we forget how much hard work was involved to get out shodan in the first place, and the time it took to develop the standup skills.
Fred

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:27 pm 
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Fred

You are absolutely right. Because of the physical nature of grappling and the close contact some people will be less than eager to participate. (Kinda they way I felt when I 1st did body conditioning with T Rose). I found this to also be true of full contact fighting in the form of kickboxing. Not alot of people want to go that extra distance.

I think one solution might be is to separate the "randori" or live grappling from the instructional period of the class. Instead of free flow grappling as part of the regular class situational randori can be used stressing the positions taught earlier in that class. It is also important for the instructor to set the tone verbally and physically of the live grappling.

Another question and I hope it is not out of line... Should anyone shying away from a "physically tough and real tough aerobic workout" be involved in martial arts?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 5:49 pm 
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Another question and I hope it is not out of line... Should anyone shying away from a "physically tough and real tough aerobic workout" be involved in martial arts?

Jim,
Ever watch a tai chi workout? :D
I mean some are more than capable of a tough workout, some want to do their Kata and go home to their heating pads. Making grappling a requirement alienates those who because of injury and age just can't do it.
And they will go to a different art.
Fred

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:01 pm 
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Fred

You are certainly right, nobody should feel alienated from doing something they enjoy.

My next question is... Is it reasonable for someone in a martial art to have high expectations (including rank) without the physical sacrafice of the difficult training you mentioned. (not just grappling)

And..... if they won't or can't make this sacrafice wouldn't it be better for them as individuals to find another art or activity that would better serve their needs.

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 Post subject: grappling
PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:38 pm 
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Jim,

If you suggest that people who can't handle the stressful workout find another art (and I know I am paraphrasing) then you have just wiped out most commercial schools. The wonderful thing about a budo art is that you should make the art become part of you, the practitioner. If someone doesn't want to train the grappling or Uechi in an aerobic fashion because they wan something different from it, then that should be ok in my book.

Let me put it another way. Many people train for the marathon fight, building up the stamina and keeping the heart rate going, etc., etc., etc, while others train for the one punch/one kill theory (grappling or stand up). Which one is right? Both.

There are so many differences between people. We can't assume everyone is an 18-30 year old "never say die" budo-ka. I teach some people who have disabilities, some older folk, and some people with health issues. I can't and won't rule them out of training in something that can still benefit them. Maybe not at competition level, but let's be honest, how many people are at that level to begin with?

You are a great teacher, I've had the benefit of taking several of your seminar at the summer class, but I know I will never be as good as you are in the grappling department, nor will I ever be. I have students who train jujitsu and judo a you do and I will never be as good as they are, but that's ok, because that's not what I want from my jujitsu training or teaching. I shouldn't expect less from my students.



Thanks for the input,

mike


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:37 am 
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Mike

Great points on people with disabilities, health issues, and of course older martial artists. In no way would I any disrespect anyone that falls in this group. God protect us from the first two and grant us the opportunity for the third...

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