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I like Aiki and I like many of the concepts they use and I think many of the moves, are combat worthy, the Irimi moves seem to have the potential of being very effective but I like the style for its controls and restraints.

However the philosophy of the founder and the style is non combative from all I've read on the subject. This is why, and correct me if I'm wrong Jorvik, competitions in Aikido involve demonstration of one's skills while being attacked by many ukes; unlike "karate competitions" where the karateka fight each other 1 on 1. I have never heard of Aikidokas "fighting each other" I think this would go against the core Shinto teachings of the style and O Sensei.

Now that doesn't mean that a person cannot use these things for fighting, I'm only speaking of what Aiki as a system or philosophy is.

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

Patrick McCarthy was telling us how Ueshiba would go to different dojo and challenge the sensei. So he wasn't all that lotus. Many Aikidoka are just like anybody else in the martial arts, some are very lotus and some can't wait to mix it up. I've met several Aikidoka who have cross trained in striking arts or have just hooked up with people who like to bash.

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I was dreaming of the past...

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"I know of one Uechika who trained Aikido and they used atemi, or rather the small group he worked out with did and they trained very hard core"Well where did they learn it?.it wasn't in an Aikido club
and if you don't believe me check out this site
http://www.aiki-buken.com/history.html

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thThe purpose of this art (Daito ryu) is not to be killed, not to be struck, not to be kicked, and we will not strike, will not kick, and will not kill. It is comp"letely for self-defense. We can handle opponents expediently, utilizineir own power, through their own aggression. So even women adn children can use it. However, it is taught only to respectable people. It's misuse would be frightening..." - Takeda Sokaku
Quote"However the philosophy of the founder and the style is non combative from all I've read on the subject. This is why, and correct me if I'm wrong Jorvik, competitions in Aikido involve demonstration of one's skills while being attacked by many ukes; unlike "karate competitions" where the karateka fight each other 1 on 1. I have never heard of Aikidokas "fighting each other" I think this would go against the core Shinto teachings of the style and O Sense"

There is a sport Aikido and in that there are 1 on 1 randori practices and also competition involving dissarming someone with a rubber knife.

The problem with this discussion is that if you have never practiced Aikido and only read about it you will have a very poor understanding of it and it's practises.
Ueshiba taught a lot of people who then went on to teach ,themselves, even after a relatively short time with Ueshiba
so you have Tomiki who developed sport Aikido, Shioda who developed Yoshinkan, Toihei who developed the Ki society .....all of these styles are different from each other
some don't even wear "Hakamas" the black skirts
The article that I posted was trying to explain these differences.....the last guy to break away from the Aikikai was Saito who developed Iwama Ryu

This is the philosophy to which I referred. Is this not also part of MU's Aiki?



Yes, I've seen this. However this does not involve two Aiki people fighting each other, as would be done by, say, the Oyama folks does it???

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

Jim
I wasn't referring to the philosophy ......I was referring to "Atemi-Waza" .(it wasn't the philosophy of Takeda and it isn't mine either)
point that I was trying to make is where did all the Atemi-waza bullschi*tt come from .Takeda didn know about it.nor do I, but there are loads of folks who have never done Aiki who do ..Am I missing sumthing.
just searching for honest facts ...I respect truthfull folks....bullsch*tt is best faced with a hard fist .....let them talk their way out of that

Jorvik,

I had asked if you heard of Gozo Shioda's group, I guess they are Yoshinkan? In Yashuhisa Shioda's book he talks about writings by Morihei Ueshiba that do talk about atemi. Now they also mention that atemi can be done with any part of the body and related very much to use of energy and position and structure for power like all Aiki.

They seem very progressive and walk through demos of techniques where Tori actually attacks the attack, the uke, in one example with a back fist and then uses this contact to convert into a Shomen Nage, for example. In other examples they use other positions to attack the attack and clash and then working off that clash. He talks about using sensitivity and working off the clash and training hard and realistically. These guys sound pretty gosh darn good to me (for Aiki .

What say you Jorvik about these guys?

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

Jim
Goza Shioda was the head of the Yoshinkan, and it is his brand of Aikido. The problem with "atemi-Waza! is folks speak of it as though it were something that is a system or a method,:roll: .but in truth it isn't. I have trained with folks who mixed in Karate type stuff, but it didn't really work......and then later I did Kaze Arashi, which did have a striking method, in fact one master has even mixed Wing-Chun into the art...........but it was nothing special, a bit like Shotokan perhaps ( although not as well developed)
If you think about it how can you use a strike and yet retain the flow associated with Aikido?...............you cannot!.as soon as you strike the flow stops...there are a few techniques were you can slip a strike in, in mid flow................when you do Ikkyo for example, you can strike under the arm, or even the back of the head.
Now that I do Tai-chi and as a fighting art .I see lots of
Aikido in it, but with strikes that work...the TC goes a heck of a lot deeper than Aiki..it's profoundity amazes me some times. I have actually considered doing Aikido again, just to further refine my TC.....but then I'm a martial arts junky and I'll never be satisfied

“the TC goes a heck of a lot deeper than Aiki..it's profoundity amazes me some times.”

I agree.

Well I'm not going to try to argue Aiki with you Jorvik.

I see things as I see them and here is what I find useful:



To me as a Wing Chun guy, the flow (and contact read) of the flow often starts when you strike/bridge; The energy and flow may lead in reverse, it may loop over or under, or it may recede this way or that way, whatever, but to me, the flow is a result of the two energies meeting, both his and yours becoming one. It often begins with the blending of this contact, and often after that first strike bridges.

Further, I see opportunities to incorporate Aiki/Jujitsu techniques that happen to flow with WCK energy and I wouldn't mind using TC Chin-na or anything else.

I think WC has lots of Chin-na opportunities built in.

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

To me Aiki does have flow in it but the energies are much bigger................really for use against a sword. The methods of Aiki are contained within WC and TC.you just need to look for them. I've just been shown a Chi-na counter to Ikkyo ...it was rather funny my TC teacher is an ex-firefighter/boxer and general sportsman and he partnered up with a small girl in the class....she had him up on his toes crying out for her to stop ...........What do they say about learning your Gung-fu from a small weak woman

Here is a demo of Aikido.

So much of this stuff is useful... actually all of it.

To say it's ineffective because the Uke is a wiling accomplice is like saying that Uechi is ineffective because the attacker in seisan bunkai is doing exactly what the defender expects.

http://www.aikiweb.com/multimedia/videos/kimeda.html

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Hydrogen Peroxide removes blood stains!

Or a small weak man...

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

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"So much of this stuff is useful... actually all of it.

To say it's ineffective because the Uke is a wiling accomplice is like saying that Uechi is ineffective because the attacker in seisan bunkai is doing exactly what the defender expects. "

Well this thread was about Atemi waza..........so you are going off on a tangent. However i have to say that i disagree with you. Most of the Aikido stuff requires you to be co-operative.look at kote-gaesh ( wrist turn)....folks do a big ole flip and roll gracefully away..........but a drunk wouldn't.he mightn't even feel it, the original of this "throw" was to break a swordsman's wrist...no throw was intended. so in it's original application it was quite different from what we see now.............and most of the throws are as flawed as that.you never ever see Aikido guys in these full contact all style fights.why do ya think that is?

Jorvik is tough on Aiki for his own reasons.

I have my own theories about Aiki; but I think the same issues apply to all these arts: Realistic training driven by sound concepts and a sound training progression sets the stage for the individual's growth, the teacher guides and the student trains – a complex animal with many, many variables that can effect the level of success. In cases of “failure of training” if one can identify it, will no doubt be due to many levels of breakdown in this complex relationship of combative training.

IMO throws are throws, locks are locks, breaks are breaks, atemi is atemi, leverage and structure are same, Ju or changing is changing, they come in different flavors but they are what they are. Styles and systems are about how you train to do develop these skills and they all teach a part of this larger picture, some wide, some narrow, some unique, some exclusive, some inclusive.

General effectiveness IMHO is about who and how you train these different skills and how far you want to take them. There is NO one right way, just as there is no one right way to season all food, still most foods are cooked, and MA skills must be as well, some like it more well done than others.

Regardless of the methods these ideas and the concepts that drive them are real and do work. Yes some more/better than others under different circumstances, and yes differently for different people with varying levels of success; but it's all good - now whether a person is good, that is another matter.

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Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit

If you don't do a big ole flip and roll away you may have a broken wrist. The graceful roll feels much beter than the broken wrist. Of course it's just like anything else, the kote-gaesh is just one tool of many in a tool box, and if that doen't work on the enraged drunk dig into your tool box for something else.

I would guess that you don't see Aikido in the sports arena mainly because it isn't a sport MA. The same can be argued against Tai Chi. I've never seen a Yang Style practitioner in the ring, but yet I still believe they have some great stuff to offer.

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Hydrogen Peroxide removes blood stains!