Origin of Modern Aikido

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Postby jorvik » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:04 pm

Well, it's kinda hard to express my viewpoint on this :oops: :oops: ................one reason that I like Uechi is the simplicity, rather like classical Japanese swordfighting :lol: ........swordfighting has two cuts and a stab.everything else is an embelishment, if you have the spirit and anger to drive through then it's a good style....if you don't then it will fail you :cry: ......aikido has too many embellishments, way too many :roll: :roll: ....
As for Yang TC...another imperfect style ( wish I happen to like :lol: ).............think of it this way, when you do something you must be critical, even if it's "your style" :lol: .....you must be true to yourself, that is the most important thing, you must be guided by your concepts of what is good and bad.I've said before fighting is very simple...........look at Thai boxers, they have technique but it ain't rocket science...then add slyness, cowardess and sneaky attacks, hidden weapons, no sense of honour, irrational anger that burns all before it, no fear of consequence.and a general disenchantment with life........and your getting close to a good fighter.....................( oh and weigth training :wink: )
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Postby JimHawkins » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:24 pm

jorvik wrote:irrational anger that burns all before it, no fear of consequence.and a general disenchantment with life


Interesting mind-setting there Jorvik. :lol: 8O

This may be a subtle point but there is more than one kind of emotional content - or no emotion.

I think especially this type:

jorvik wrote:irrational anger that burns all before it


A far cry from mushin, :lol: I think it may actually act to prevent the use of Aiki; and by that I don't mean the style but rather the meaning of Aiki - harmonizing - fitting in. Found in many a style – it is a soft concept IMHO that may become more elusive when we embrace "irrational anger" a very Western mindset, and maybe, just maybe, one that limits its owner to the more external ('harder') and more ridged expressions of combat...
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Postby jorvik » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:47 pm

No Jim,
You have to have an effective starting point....if you study Zen,Dao, or even Christianity...you will recognise this mindset :? :? (..........anyway how do you like your Mushin?? ....with french fries and a curry sauce, or maybe on plain boiled rice :lol: :lol: :wink: )..............do ya know Jim I know a guy who lives in a million dollar house, top of the range BMW.....first class honour degree from Cambridge.but the poor guy is dying of brain cancer :cry: :cry: :cry: .....but he has spirit ( much more than I ever had :oops: :oops: ..even after all my years of MA'S)...when they took out the tumour they had to drill into his head, under "local Anysetic"......after wards I asked him about it......you'll love this, pure English 8) 8) :lol: 8) " No, Not my best day" ......so does he have Mushin??.........No, I think not................and neither do I :oops: ......I'm much more human :wink: ....................but the anger :lol: :lol: ............yeah :evil: :evil: that is always there.......don't know how it got there...or why it won't go away, but I can really scare folks with it....I can even scare myself :cry:
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Postby benzocaine » Sun Jun 19, 2005 11:53 am

Wish I had the answers to the whole blind rage vs calm control argument.

I'd hope I had the state of mind that I had a job to do and that's save my asss. Prison gaurds effectively wrestly and subdue big and angry people daily, all without losing their cool.. well.. completely losing it.
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Postby jorvik » Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:32 pm

Quote
"I'd hope I had the state of mind that I had a job to do and that's save my asss. Prison gaurds effectively wrestly and subdue big and angry people daily, all without losing their cool.. well.. completely losing it."

No they don't, some of them may be able to.but in all situations were the authorities are concerned they go in mob handed and try to use overwhelming force.Look at the military, or SWAT teams.they don't send one man who is good with a pistol to take out a gunmen.....they have a couple of armed responce units all highly trained and in constant contact with their headquarters, who are ready to rspond with backup................now compare that to a situation that you might face.
And my viewpoint is "Classical"..........one of the Yang brothers was a total nutcase who would fight anybody,anywhere anytime............and look at Takeda...Ueshiba's teacher.......he killed about 20 constrution workers with a samurai sword, and was constantly looking for trouble :roll: .........he thought that Aikido was "dancing"...and used to laugh when he saw it......most Aiki-jutsu sources are not very thrilled with Aikido :D
it's a great ideal to have.the small weak man overcoming overwhelming numbers and remaing calm within the storm, using only his skill and no physical strength.....yeah :lol: :lol: .......in your dreams :wink:
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Postby benzocaine » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:09 pm

it's a great ideal to have.the small weak man overcoming overwhelming numbers and remaing calm within the storm, using only his skill and no physical strength.....yeah .......in your dreams


Of course Jorvik. But there are numerous locks throws and pins in Aikido. There are some great concepts as well, like blending with an attackers energy. This can be the soft that's in Uechi's wauke. Hell, Know a good striking art (like Uechi) and have something like Aikido in your arsonal as well. I'll be honest. I've spent years in Uechi, and my knowledge of throws, locks and pins is limited to what I could glean from watching other styles from afar.

How did Quina get dropped from a Chinese art?
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Postby MikeK » Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:10 pm

The same can be argued against Tai Chi. I've never seen a Yang Style practitioner in the ring, but yet I still believe they have some great stuff to offer.

William C.C. Chen has a son that competes in sanda using Tai Chi and I've heard of a few in MMA.
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Postby jorvik » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:35 pm

Quote
"How did Quina get dropped from a Chinese art?"...............I don't understand you there Ben....do you think that it was dropped from Tai-Chi?.....well it wasn't, Qi-na is in a lot of Chinese Martial arts and especially so in TC.....and I think that Uechi is a related art, so it is in there as well, maybe you just haven't met someone who could teach you that :roll: ....................I think that there is some confusion here. I am not opposed to using locks and pins or even throws .in fact very painful locks are a speciality of mine :lol: .and drop em on their head throw as well...it's not the throws that bad .....it is the underlying philosophy of so many Aikido folks and the way it is practiced.........if had effective defensive moves against punches and kicks I would have stayed with it :)
As to Tai-chi
http://www.fightingtaichi.com
it's not Yang style............( Wudang in fact).but these guys like to fight......and so do Aiki jutsu folks that I have known
http://www.kazearashiryu.org/ :wink:
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Postby f.Channell » Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:56 am

Kenji Tomiki
Senior student of Ueshiba 8th dan
Judo 9th dan
Black Belt magazine article January 1969 quoted speaking of aikido as it was then being taught at the Hombu dojo.

"Their techniques are conducted under a set of given conditions, such as your opponent will invariably seize you by the wrist or strike you on the forehead.
Training is like taking dance lessons because of such rigid premises"

He went on to criticize the failure to engage in free practice and the practice of competitive bouts.

"In olden times, the samurai and the ninja mastered every martial art then existent," he says, "but today very few budomen venture beyond their own specialty."

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Postby benzocaine » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:24 pm

"Their techniques are conducted under a set of given conditions, such as your opponent will invariably seize you by the wrist or strike you on the forehead.
Training is like taking dance lessons because of such rigid premises"



Not much different than us training against the chambered punch :wink: or doing prearanged work. :)

I see it more as training against lines of attack, not a wrist grab.

Things are done softly and slowly in Aikido practice because alot of these throws and grabs will give a person a nasty spiral fracture of the ulnar or radial bones.. not fun :roll:
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Postby JimHawkins » Tue Jun 21, 2005 1:02 pm

jorvik wrote:it is the underlying philosophy of so many Aikido folks and the way it is practiced


Right!

So, ultimately it's not the concepts or the techniques that are the problem it's how these are trained. A fact of life for many students of many schools is that finally the student must take it upon himself to hone his edge and realize his full potential - however one chooses to do that.

But to be fair, many Aiki schools and other 'softer art schools' HAVE taken it upon themselves to turn training up a notch or two. And truth be told: Jorvik is quite confident in his 'Aiki skills' despite the tone of his posts regarding the style....right Jorvik? ;) :P
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Postby jorvik » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:42 pm

quote
"But to be fair, many Aiki schools and other 'softer art schools' HAVE taken it upon themselves to turn training up a notch or two. And truth be told: Jorvik is quite confident in his 'Aiki skills' despite the tone of his posts regarding the style....right Jorvik? "

well to a point, but I tend to use boxing movements,low kicks, then head butts and elbow strikes, they are what I practice, that and some classical Tai-chi.....I do know Aikido and I also know some Aiki jutsu,jiu-jutsu ( my first art), and Qi-na.I would use any or all of these in a conflict . I don't think that if an aikidoka saw me that he would think that I was doing Aiki.
check out
http://www.defendo.com/defendo_web_site.htm
I'd like to think that I would look a lot more like this guy :lol: :lol: ......and a lot of his stuff is aikido type stuff.......but, big but
his philosophy is different,his concepts are different, and he doesn't call it Aikido.he calls it "Defendo" :wink:
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Postby Rick Wilson » Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:30 am

Someone either posted or I read it in an article on old style Jujitsu that one of the reasons for all that wrist grabbing defences is that in the old sword days when people tried to assassinate you they often grabbed your sword arm to prevent you from drawing your sword while they or others tried to kill you.

So in those days it was a valid attack to prepare for.

I am all for lines of force too though.
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Postby AAAhmed46 » Wed Jun 22, 2005 6:24 am

I have never sat in an aikido class, but in some of the Bjj forums i visisted, they continously grill aikido guys for not being able to work under pressure, and therefore making aikido ******. Atleast thats what some of them think. What do they mean, are they talking a lack of sparring?
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Postby jorvik » Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:34 pm

You have to do Aikido to really appreciate it, and the comments that I have made about it. I have seen small weak women throw big strong men across a room :roll: ......could they do that for real?.....no-way :oops: ....and that is the problem. Look at Aiki videos and you see somebody just running at someone else who then throws him :lol: :lol: ..what is that about??
If I wanted to attack somebody I would get close to them..I wouldn't launch my attack from 30 feet away .with my hand over my head waiting to chop you :lol: :lol: .look at Aiki videos
http://www.aikidojournal.com/media.php?media=video

do folks attack you like this?? :roll: .......coz if they don't why bother to train against it :wink:
that's why I like boxing and weights.for their honesty 8) 8)
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