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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
I'm not going to knock those guys who get into the octogon. They are certainly tough son-of-a-bitches, but I watch the matches religiously, week after week, and I start to wonder to myself if any one of them has learned how to fall? I keep hearing their credentials (i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, degree black belt in Brazilian Jujitsu), but I'm not seeing the basics of how to land. Does anyone else see that or am I looking for something that just isnt' there.

Mike


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:29 am 
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As I've said many times Mike but no one ever sems to get my meaning.
They "take down" in BJJ but don't "throw", as in the way you and I do with our traditional Japanese arts. Their takedowns would not score in Judo for the most part. When they drop down to hook on one knee for example, no score in Judo.
I've been taught by several BJJ guys but always in a Judo or Karate setting, so I can't really say if they do or not.
I also don't know how hard that surface is their landing on.

F.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:30 pm
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Location: Sarasota, FL
With all respect gents, this is totally incorrect on all counts.

I am a USJA judo sandan, and a purple belt in BJJ (among other things) - been studying it for about ten years. I have ring experience with both.

Very rarely in judo will you see a player during shiai execute ukemi. It helps make the other fella's throw "more scoreable" when you vigorously slap the mat in classic ukemi. So they generally don't slap and work on improving position as they are being thrown. Besides, very rarely is ukemi even necessary in shiai. Most folks who have been tossed around enough can easily take falls and limit the impact through timing and body positioning, which is REALLY the important part of ukemi anyway.

The BJJ syllabus has practically every throw as the judo syllabus. Whether any individual BJJ school teaches them or not, that is up for question, because it would be hard to find one who teaches most of them. However, the various hip and shoulder throws, ogoshi, hanegoshi, etc, as well as ippon seoinage and drop seionage are standard fare at BJJ schools. And at the BJJ school I attend, guess what - we spend time practicing ukemi.

The single-leg take down that you say will not result in a score in judo is called "kuchiki taoshi" in judo. "Kibishigaeshi" is an ankle pick. The double-leg take down is called "morote gari." All of these are scoreable techniques. They are part of the Kodokan's "Shinmeisho No Waza."

What aggravates me when I watch the UFC and similar shows is all of the missed opportunities for Uki Goshi. There is ALWAYS a brilliant opportunity for this throw on the standing tie-up, especially on the fence. Karo Parysian does this throw ALL the time. Why isn't everyone else picking up on it???

Jeff Cook


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:08 pm 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Jeff,

Thanks for the reply and information regarding your training. You certainly have a unique perspective. Having a twenty year history in Nihon Jujitsu myself, which has a strong background of Judo (Shizuya Sato Sensei - 8th Dan Kodokan Judo/10th Nihon Jujistus and student of Ito & Mifune, has incorporated much Judo into the system), I totally agree with you regarding the ukemi. However, since most of the competitors are taken down while still in the clutch or simply as you say, not to open themselves up upon landing, don't even breakfall using their feet.

Not having seen any breakfall from the octagon, I was wondering if they even teach it in BBJ. I'm glad to hear they do at your dojo. I also agree that they set themselves up all the time for Ukigoshi (minor hip throw) as well as a few others.

A question for you though. You said that a single leg throw is not scored in judo. The single leg that I learned was Sukuinage. I don't know the throw you mentioned (I'll pull out my Porter tapes), but why is it not scored?

thanks,

mike


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:36 am 
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Location: Sarasota, FL
Mike, good to hear from you! You have an impressive background. I forgot to mention I am *mostly* a classical jujitsu guy too - and a karate guy - and a certified Modern Army Combatives Program instructor (still active duty). But I started with Judo, back in '79. Getting old brother. (Not boasting, just laying out the basis for my opinions.)

I think I was misunderstood. The single-leg IS scored. My apologies for garbling that up - although I DID put that in bold-face type! ;)

You and I are both right about the single-leg name. I just found this link: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... g-takedown

which states:

"In Judo and other budo, there are many classifications of different types of single leg takedowns. Variants of the high crotch correspond to sukui-nage (掬投, "scoop throw"[3]), where the opponent is lifted up from the ground[4], while the typical forward pushing single leg takedown is classified as morote-gari[5] (双手刈, "both hands scoop"[3]) (similarly to certain double leg takedowns). Some techniqes are more specific, for instance kibisu-gaeshi (踵返, "heel trip reversal"[3]), which is an ankle pick where the heel is grabbed, scooped up and the opponent is pushed and thrown immediately. In kuchiki-taoshi (朽木落, "one hand drop"[6]), the opponent's leg is grabbed, pulled up, and used to push the opponent down to the ground in a split second."

I think the lack of ukemi with the feet is because of two things that are both related: it is not necessary because of the surface they are playing on, and they are ignorant of using their feet in that fashion. Due to lack of necessity, they don't learn it or train it, and are thus ignorant of it. That would be my guess.

Jeff Cook


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:11 pm 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Jeff,

Thanks for the great information. I will look up those throws and give them a whirl. I have a couple of USJA black belts that train jujitsu with me, so they can help me with the details. Where did you find the Kanji? What a great addition!

thanks again,

mike


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:27 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:30 pm
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Location: Sarasota, FL
Thanks Mike; good chatting with you here. The kanji are from the link in my post above - I just copied and pasted from the link. I have no idea if they are correct; I only know a few characters.

Let me know how your training with the USJA guys goes! By the way, if you ever play stand-up with a BJJ guy, a lot of them are vulnerable to sumigaeshi, due to some of them leaning way too far forward in a jigo hontai.

Jeff Cook


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