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 Post subject: shime waza
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2000 9:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 988
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
In Judo, one of the goals (if possible) is to choke your opponant out. This I believe constitutes an Ippon. In other words, game, set, match. In jujitsu training, shime waza is practiced as well. In Nihon Jujitsu, there are 5 carotid chokes in the curriculum:
Hadaka jime
Juji jime
Kataha jime
Yoko Eri jime
Ryote jime

Are there more than that? Probably, but like most of jujitsu techniques, they are chokes made from the basics up top. All of these chokes have their place in training, and all are extremely strong once in place. However, more often or not, these chokes turn into windpipe chokes and not carotid. Which is better? Who's to say? I would suggest that instead of crushing a windpipe that putting someone out is much more efficient and less messy :-)

How many people use these in their randori? How about you Small Circle people? Is shime waza in your curriculum?


Any comments on the art of shime waza?

mike


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 Post subject: shime waza
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2000 1:55 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 821
Location: Ptld OR USA
Mike-
Don't have references to check my spelling, so I'll list these in English.

Naked strangle (one-arm sleeper hold)
Sleeper hold
Single wing (sleeper with shoulder lock)
Reverse sleeper (from the front)
Full cross
Reverse cross
Half cross on either side
Guillotine
Triangle (Sankaku- with the legs)
Lariat (the lapel ratchet)

To my experience, tracheal chokes will get a tap faster because they hurt, but if the threat is not feeling pain it will take minutes to physically shut down his system. Strangles are much faster.

I also feel that they are safer (oh no, this one again). Once pressure is released from a vascular strangle, blood pressure is almost always resumed quickly and completely. Tracheal chokes may cause swelling that can compromise breathing several minutes later...resulting in death after the situation is resolved.

As an aside- the best thing about a vascular strangle is that it is universally effective- drugs, alcohol, schizophrenia and even 'mind set' don't help at all when your brain is shut down.

Rory


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 Post subject: shime waza
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2000 3:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 988
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Rory,

Believe it or not but I do much better with the Japanese than the English on Jujitsu techniques, so I'm not sure I can compare the chokes you gave to the one's I wrote down. I'll try to find translations though.

Other than that, if I understood your comment, you say that the tracheal is faster, and that it would take minutes for a carotid? Having been nearly choked out on several occasions, I would disagree with that. It only takes several seconds (approx. 5 or so) to put someone out. Faster I suppose by people who are really good.

mike


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 Post subject: shime waza
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2000 7:22 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 821
Location: Ptld OR USA
Nonono!

The tracheal will often get a faster _TAP_ because of the pain, but it will take minutes to put some one out of comission with it.

A real good carotid will often get no tap at all because they feel nothing, but will put them in dreamland in a few seconds.

Whoah. I'd better re-read my posts!
Rory


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 Post subject: shime waza
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2000 12:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 1897
Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
A favorite of mine is cuuting down on ST-9 to weaken the body during the Carotid Choke...it also gets a quick tap for competion as well. Small Circle uses all of the above mentioned chokes...diferent terms but a choke none the less.

------------------
Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho


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 Post subject: shime waza
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2000 12:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2071
Location: Boston, MA
Have to agree that the carotid choke is very insidious... You think you can fight it... Next thing, you're in nighty night land. Speaking from (bad) expericence. Image

david


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