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 Post subject: one strike/one kill
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2000 7:21 pm 
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Location: Newton, MA
"When some speak of strikes that can kill, not working under pressure, i think of a "special forces" friend who spoke of the "Mind set" in real life and death combat.
It was stated that the "element of suprise" was a great factor. Also the training was not of exchanging punches with the enemy, for ones "life" was at stake. Such tactics as breaking necks, collapsing windpipes, gouging eyes, cutting juggler vains, etc. was realistically used."

It's not a question of these kind of strikes working or not working under pressure, it's a question of extreme reliance on something.

MANY (not all) martial artists I've met who adhere to the theory of the one-shot/one-kill do so blindy. They train believing that they will always successfully break the guys neck, crush his windpipe, or whatever.

When faced with a situation where their particular tactic fails, they are incapable of adapting to that new situation/problem because they are still stunned by the fact that their "killing blow" didn't work.

Can it be done? Of course. As Murphy-Sensei correctly points out, you will never know until you try. It could happen. If it does, so much the better for you (assuming that amount of force was justified).

I believe in preparing for the worst. If that means practicing a killing shot, fine. If that means practicing for what happens when my killing shot is missed, jammed or otherwise negated...even better.

"I doubt many martial art practicioners or instructors will ever be in a life threatening situation of that nature. But i am sure that swat teams, military secret operations, seal teams, etc. train in a much different manor as we do."

You only have to be a life or death situation once for it to matter.

Yes, swat teams, military ops, ect. do train differently from us. They have an entirely different directive, scenario, and mindset. The job of these people is to go into situations where the rest of us don't. They go in with teams of armed men, carrying weapons and wearing armor.

They are some of the toughest men and women alive on this planet, and I have nothing but respect for what they do. But I'm not required to do it, and I don't train to do it. I train for situations I'm likely to find myself in. Muggings, break-in's, kidnapping, and worse.

Remember...the bad guy the SWAT team goes after is the same one who breaks into your house to try kill you.

Food for thought.
Jake


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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan


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 Post subject: one strike/one kill
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:40 am 
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Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 288
Location: Randolph Ma USA
Rory,

I agree with you regarding the reputation of Jujitsu in it's overall effectiveness.
Certainly the in tight fighting and contact is much different from the punching and/or kicking of many karate systems that tend to rely on distance for the ability to utilize the striking weapons.

I often will work in close to feel my partners position and look for ways to control, take down or set up for finishing techniques. It is much different from trying to maintain distance nd exchanging techniques, which i enjoy also.

I do not think you are being to sensitive in your post. I respect what you do.

Jake,

I understand your point and your comments are well taken. There are also those who train regularly for years that have never felt any sufficient power in being hit. I fear they will be very surprized when and if a worthy opponent comes across their path. Playing in a dojo (as some do) and really mixing it up, is quite different.

I have sparred some individuals that have taken my best shots and still keep coming.
Others have yeilded. There are some who can exchange very heavily under the "adreneal dump" and not even know they are broken up until a day or two later.

If you have been there, you know what i mean. It is an experience.

Respectfully,



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Gary S.


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 Post subject: one strike/one kill
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2000 8:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 988
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Jake,

Great post. You are so correct about what we train. I train weaponless with this theory that one shot will kill my opponant. With a lifetime of training maybe that will be possible, but for now, I will assume that unless I am lucky, I will have to hit my opponant more than once. I will have to train for that. Put it this way, I would rather have more stuff prepared than not enough.

mike


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 Post subject: one strike/one kill
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2000 9:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 17, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 2813
Location: Massachusetts
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jake Steinmann:
... Also the training was not of exchanging punches with the enemy, for ones "life" was at stake. Such tactics as breaking necks, collapsing windpipes, gouging eyes, cutting juggler vains, etc. was realistically used.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are there really ju-jitsu-kas who don't train those tactics?!? Isn't the purpose of training in the Martial Arts to be able to defend yourself in that instance of immenent death or grave bodily harm?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I believe in preparing for the worst. If that means practicing a killing shot, fine. If that means practicing for what happens when my killing shot is missed, jammed or otherwise negated...even better.


Absolutely!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
You only have to be a life or death situation once for it to matter.


AMEN to that!


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But I'm not required to do it, and I don't train to do it. I train for situations I'm likely to find myself in. Muggings, break-in's, kidnapping, and worse.

Remember...the bad guy the SWAT team goes after is the same one who breaks into your house to try kill you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent point! Martial training is martial training... makes no difference if your job in special forces requires you to go into a situation or if the situation comes to you in your everyday life as Joe Geek... You train to survive and stop the threat by whatever means necessary... punches, kicks, blocks, atemi waza, kyusho, .40S&W, or grabbing that priceless 17th century samurai sword from the wall! As martial artists, we don't go looking for trouble, but we prepare for it none-the-less...


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 Post subject: one strike/one kill
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2000 9:55 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2422
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Mike:

This puts me in mind of two incidents:

The first was watching two then Yondans spar at the '84 camp. Nobody stopped for 'nothin.

"point" sparring is an obvious culprit when it comes to pointing a finger at the cause for the 'stand and watch' syndrome.

The second involved a former co-student of ours who came to my old dojo in Norwell.

(Initials AA)

He got bored doing kata, so he wanted to spar. He did well. However, he kept stopping the "match" and pointing at me and saying "right there, right there" indicating a point.

I was doing OK but declined to call a halt on any points I 'scored'.

About the third time this 'pointing thing' happened, I determined it was---well---"bogus"--every time he stopped to point thereafter he was hit or put on the ground. IE: I didn't stop, and he learned not to unless I said 'yame'.

He never visited again.

I regret that HE let his own ego thereafter apparently divert him from the 'martial way'.

JT



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 Post subject: one strike/one kill
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2000 3:42 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 988
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
John,

I agree that point sparring has led to a lot of the stop and watch syndrome, but I think it really has to do more with human nature, and unless it is purposely worked on, people will do it forever.

Good example with AA. Always a good fighter, I learned a lot from the bruises he gave me on a regular basis; however, I don't think he could do it now. But can we really blame him? He (as we were) were really just products of our own instructor.

mike


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 Post subject: one strike/one kill
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2000 3:19 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2422
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Mike San:

A point well taken. I don't blame AA. I 'blame' the mind set of the dojo we came from to some extent.

We spar now without stopping (unless some has been hit pretty hard, or pushed out of the ring-and these stoppages are safety based)

No scoring, therefore no ego and no 'headhunting". You know what I mean.

Again, I am sorry I missed your recent visitors. You are certainly invited to close teach a class (Fridays are best) whenever convenient.

In any event, we'll see you in august, and I hope to work with you and Even, and maybe Jack will go.

He usually does.

I have a question, but I'll start another topic on it tommorow.

JT

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 Post subject: one strike/one kill
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2000 4:58 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3542
Location: Valhalla
John and Mike,
haven't heard of the AA in quite some time. Thanks for taking me back (shudder) I believe he is long gone from the art, I believe he had his own set of personnal problems at the time and after. Sad to see Karate couldn't straighten him out. A bad instructor can be blamed for it sometimes but I see too many people who will recognize this and move on to a better experience.


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 Post subject: one strike/one kill
PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2000 10:28 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 268
Jiu Jitsu is a marvelous ad effective art. In its fullness it includes all techniques unarmed and armed, all tactics and all strategies.

Karate was once jiujitsu.Katas of kaate are one man jiujjitsu katas sequencesd intoa mnemonic series.

Jiujitsu of course was once called Kempo or ch'uan fa,and the locking techniques were called chin na, and still are in Chinese styles, as the throws are called shuai or 'felling' and the strikes are ca;led da or hitting and the kicks are called ti.

Kempo had and has, in Chinese forms, two person versions of the kata, caled fighting forms.

Most Okinawan styles retain only the applications of the kata techniques fro these forms, and some do not, like Uechi ryu.

Thus we have a discussion on the relative effectiveness of two arts which once were one.

A lock is still a lock, a punch is still a punch, a point is just a place to hit, that hurts,

The fundamental things remain, as time goes by.":-)

By the way, refer to early jiujitsu texts, they teach kyusho, as Atemiwaza.

Even Kodokan Judo , the official text , has some.

A kick is still a kick ,its all the same old story, a fight, no gloves, no glory, it down and dirty sur-vi-val, as time goes by."

Love that song.:-)

Kusanku


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 Post subject: one strike/one kill
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2000 2:41 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 988
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Kusanku,

Again, what you say has much value. Although most of what we practice has Chinese roots, many of the arts have only borrowed Chinese concepts and not the art entirely. The Japanese culture has had a wonderful history of borrowing ideas and concepts, changing them and making them distictively "Japanese." Jujitsu in one of those concepts. That is why they consider it the mother of all Japanese arts (sumo included). Even the Okinawan arts (Shorin-ryu, Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu, Isshin-ryu, etc.) have Chinese backgrounds, but many still combine the indiginous Okinawan arts with these "new" arts to form their own style. That's why the Chinese arts are still very much different than those practiced on Oki.

But, I agree that a strike is just a strike and where you hit and with how much force depends on whether the strike will kill or not.

mike


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 Post subject: one strike/one kill
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2000 5:22 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 268
'The Chinese arts are very different than those practiced on Oki.'

They have become so i some cases, but not in others. You see, I alsopractice Chinese arts, Tai Ji and Kuontao(Southern Shaolin Hakka Tiger Boxing) among them, and find them very similar to some Okinawan arts.

If that is, one has been taught the inner stuff(okuden and gain no mysticism) of the Okinawan arts, which contain entire systems of Okinawan and Chinese and Japnese aikijujitsu/chinna which are either the same thing, interchangeable or overlapping and connectable, nobody really knows which.

Wanta hear some Shorin ryu Okuden?

Before you step forward , turn your heel in, from forward step, and toe out, from a sideward.

Then step straight on.

If your opponent grabs you, point the index finger of the grabbed hand in the direction you want to lock your opponent, and apply.

Every lock has three hidden strikes in it, one at the beginning to distract, one in the middle if he gets loose to stun, and one at the end if he gets loose, to kill.

There is no kamae or stance in reality, you respond from whatever position you are in.

There is no defensive hand position , you move from wherever the hands are, same with the feet.

Never face power head on.Never face defense with attack. When the oppoent thinks of attack you counter simultaneously.

If you block or grab the opponet's limbm unbalance him or simultaneously strike r kick.Any other option will expose you to danger.

Always strive to go to the side of the opponent, ninety or forty five degrees to the front or rear.If you can't do this, make the opponent go off to the side and counter when he can't see you.

Control the opponent's spirit and you win every time, as long as you also control your own.

Control the opponent's mind and he can't think to defeat you.

Control the opponent's body alone and you had better act fast.

Speed is power.

Some of the inner stuff of Shorin ryu, and i am sure many another art.


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