To take your points as you give them(Kusanku begins pedantically,<index> finger pointing in air parallel to two upthrusting hairs on otherwise balding but light bulb shaped head, in reedy and piping voice with professorial tone)
'I don't think the movements are hidden in uechi, nor do I think they are hidden in Shorin or Shotokan.'
I do, because the Chinese originals teach that these movements are indeed meant to be there.The difference is, the modern intepretations are not necessarily the same as the original techniques.
You have the right to think what you wish, but several of your statements are , shall we say, not quite the facts, as we shall see.
'If I say there is a kote gatame in a wa uke, would you say yes or no?'
What is a kote gatame? A wrist holddown?
I would say no. If you mean a kata gatame, a shoulder wheel, yes, you can derive one from wa uke but I do not believe that, as presently taught in judo, to be one of the original applications of wa uke; the body positioning is wrong.
'I can put one there.'
Perhaps you can, but again I do not believe that is one of the original combat apps of a move shown being done by Hindu statues of the god Shiva.
I believe it is a pattern move containing all hand techniques in seed form of ancient unarmed combat.But ancient unarmed combat took no chances,and picking the opponent up over your shoulders while still facing you, is not a technique I believe was an original idea of ancient fighters, but rather a new type throw developed by Kano.
For the original of kata guruma see daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, the throw picks the person up back to you, so you can break the back. Hand pattern of the original throw not like wa uke at all.
'we'll hide them in the kata until you are ready to practice them.'
I don't believe that either, Mike. Thought I made that clear. I believe the way of teaching basics has changed. The way I learned them , the techniques in the katas are obvious but for a few.Like the hair pull one, which by the way won't work on a person with gray or white hair, or no hair, or a buzz cut.For them you have to strike that region.
'too much mysticism in the arts.'Couldn't agree more , MIke, a lot of my time is spent trying to get the bullsnort out of people's minds.But kata apps being intended to be in the kata is not mysticism any more than jiujitsu is mysticism. These are biomechanically sound techniques that work.Of course no technique is magic, or works on everybod all the time. I bet noone o this newsgroup would want to try to ko Mike Tyson with one deadly shoken punch, if Mike was free to retaliate after our attempt failed.
Or how about trying to choke out Rickson Gracie, if he gets to do you next?
'Comon, you don't really believe that shushiwa killed a tiger with a shoken strike?'
I don't know whether he did or not.Didn't Kanbun tell this story, and wasn't he supposed to have been there with shushiwa when this happened? Was Kanbun lying?And wasn't that supposed to have been some old man killed the tiger and not shushiwa, and wasn't it a leopard?-)
I don't know, I wasn't there. Do I believe it could be done?Jury is out, I do know that Indian ahouts diagram elephants vital points such as to control them with a stick and their knees, and that it works, and that some of the points are supposed to be able to kill the elephants. I have the chart.
Could they have charted a tiger's vital points and could shushiwa have known these(he was supposed to have been a tiger boxer after all) and did he use one?
I don't know. Too bad Kanbun didn't video this.:-)I am not gullible and credulous, I did not believe in vital points either until my Shorin ryu instructor demo'ed a few of them, on me.Nothing mystical about them, I firmly believe they are nerve points and that is what we always called them,,and I beileve acupuncture uses nerves too. But I asked a surgeon martial artist and he said that acuuncture apparently empirially discovered certain connections beween nerves that western medicine doesn't know the mechanisms for , yet.
This is not mysticism, which inn my understanding is the practice of prayer, meditation and communion with God, which I believe is real but that is not on topic.. This is not hypnotism, this is not suggestion, projecting ones chi through the air to ko someone without touching them. This is pain, pure and simple.:-)
I stand corrected, mystatement was not in accord with fact, on the Kanbun killing story. It was then , one of his students who killed someone.
I had nderstood from George Mattson's first book that Kanbun killed a bandit with one thrust from sanchin, presumably a shoken since you guys never use seiken.I must have gotten the anecdotes confused. But, I admit when I am wrong and go on.
'I can tell you feel this way about shorin(that it is the best.')It's one of the best I have found after studying many many arts, it has what is needed to accomplish the tasks.If however I had never studied Judo or Jiujitsu, I would possibly be vulnerable to those attacks if I didn't work my theory properly.:-)
Shorin is like this:You get one chance for it to work in an advantageous manner, and if you don't work it right, you're fighting.Like Tai Chi, Aikido, Wing Chun or Jujitsu, if your technique doesn't work right now, at the beginning of the conflict, you have lost your advantage.
You may or may not be able to regain this advantage.
Shorin ryu for success in combat depends almost entirely on trained reaction getting you to an angle right now.It does work in real combat, Iguarantee. But if youdon't make angle, you are squared off, toe to toe, and then what have you got?
Snap, speed and rapid ripping and tearing combinations, a hell of a punch and one hell of a front snap kick, and after that if the oppionent is still standing you better be fast another way.:-)
Judo depends if used in technical sense upon getting unbalancing on opponent at beginning of confrontation, or getting leverage from ground sooner than opponent gets it on you.Fail to do either of these and you lose.
Jiujitsu depends on all of the above or on knowing a 'trick' your oppoent does not, or being able to get position for some trick such that a tained opponent cannot stop it.fail to do this and you lose.
Uechiryu depends upon getting to use the special Uechi attributes on a p-erson not equipped to handle them,or whom ifequipped is less so than yourself, before he can use his on you. fail to do this and... you get the idea.
Where in any of this is mysticism?
'Are the movments really hidden, or are they just interpretations?'
Both.What's the problem as long as they work?Whyargue the point after all? But if you want to, why move in all those strange and silly ways in kata that we never do in kumite, if they are not one man versions of jiujitsu waza?
And of course you can interpret them into your favorite techniques using the same moves too, called reverse engneering, so you have both, and more power and good health toyou.:-)
Now what you said that was not true is that both Uechi and Miyagi, who went to China, chose not to reveal the hidden moves in the kata. Not so, Miyagi did.
All Okinawan Goju people do applications of kata passed down by Miyagi.
Now here is anther fact: Mabiuni I believe dd goto China also, but his teacher was Higaonna for the Naha forms, and Higaonna did study in China , and he taught kata apps to Mabuni.Mabuni also did kat apps for shorin.
mabuni's kata apps, Goju apps and Shorin apps are identical in almost all cases.
Thisis why I say these have been passed down from China. Also the Bubishi shows forty-eight self defense waza demonstrably from Okinawan kata, also identical with Jiujitsu waza.
Thus my case is, not tht Shorin ryu is supreme over all other styles, that wold be a nonsensical statement, as bad as saying that jiujitsu is supreme, meet a Judo champ like you did, you might reconsider that one if you made it but you didn't.
In seminars I used to teach(sniffles for the glory of old, now passed forever, heed this ye mortal men), I would have a couple likely black belts and JKD types, step up, and assume fighting stance, and try to attack before Icould hit them with ko uchi gari makikomi.I always made sure they were back to a mat and able to ukemi, first, because invariably they did so.:-)The waza is a single leg dive to a forty five degre angle and down.
Not because they were unskilled or lacked the warrior mindset, but because they new not this technique nor had no clue, how to defend themselves therefrom.
You don't get your leg out of the way, truth to tell, there really isn't much you can do to stop this, as you may well know.
And in a good solid fighting stance, Hee! Hee!, down you go , Ash over applecart.
Is that maneuver hidden in any katas? Not any which made it to Okinawa, but there are some Chinese systems which do have those.
But mysticism, myth, bs, crap? No.
As for being brave to say I can ko with a hairpull, I have done.I was taught the manuever by my ancient and wizened Shorin ryu teacher, who was a bouncer and veteran of many street confronttions againt unarmed, multiple attackers and weapons including knifes and crowbar. Was he a god? No, but he was the toughest little guy I ever knew, and the fastest, and his scars from when he didn't quite control the blade fast enough showed he spoke truth, as well as that everyone in town knew what had happened.
That and the banged in knuckle on his little finger where he got hit when he blocked the crowbar, just before he o'ed the wielder with a punch to the center of the forehead. The both went to the emergency room but his was for a hand warp, the other guy , it was a concussion.
Teacher's motto? "Karate is a hard fist and a lot of nerve!."
He had and maybe still has plenty of both.
When he did demos, he would invite young gang members to atack with live blades and they did.
He taught me how, but I don't play that, kusanku not foolhardy. Why did my teacher this?Well, he was instructor for Ohio State Highway Patrol members abd he was doing research , he said.
Tell you what though Kimosabe:-), he was the real deal, no master at all, no mystic stuff, just a dyed in the wool butt kickin' dude.
Now myJudo teacher , had been on the US Air Force Judo team.
I just don't come from a mystical martial backgrond as far as my training is concerned.
Do I believe any style or art is supreme? No. But I always tell katrate people two things:
1. Learn Judo or be foreer vulnerable!
2.Think like a jiujitsuman about your techniques.Meaning think about what will actally work and trash the theory if you can not walk the talk.
I like Mr. Nagamine's shorin ryu becuse it has natural stances, free and natural footwork that is compatible with that of Judo, Aikido,Aikijujitsu, boxing, and Chin Na.
The breathing is in and out:-) through the nose, and sometimes kiai through the eyes and mouth when you feel like it,te stepping is natural and flexible and fluid and its all evasion based, and the punches and strikes and kicks are thrown without regard to hip involvement, though you can always do that if you want.Meaning you can punch as effectively from the floor as standing up.
The katas are very much strike and impact riented but the footwork enables aikijujitsu locks and throws which hurt like heck and I can not believe that ids a coinceidence.
Did Mr. Nagamine put the apps there or were they already there?He says they were already there, but also e is a judoka and so on, and so his art does mesh well with others.
I like that.
Were the apps already there? Many Chinese masters say so, four four undred years at least, in writing.
Bubishi, Taiji Classics, Yang Ch'eng Fu, Ch'eng Man-Ching, Yang Jwing-Ming and others all say this is so.
[This message has been edited by kusanku (edited August 04, 2000).]