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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2000 10:02 am 
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Posts: 268
(Wizened and ancient practitioner of vrious martial arts appears, head bare but for two upthrusting hairs.In a muttering and soft voice with pronounced accent he begins tospeak Image

Mike Murphy says, that all too often we ear that kata have hidden movements.Personally, he avers, I think it is all crap.

He says no offense to people who believe this bs.

Mike, Mike.Shame on you.If you really believe what you say, for shame.

This column exists because partly, of a person who for twenty years studied the hidden applcations of kata, though e began in Jiujitsu four years and then went to Judo for four and a half, long ago in the Sixties and Seventies.

This person helped irritate many Uechika into studying Jiujitsu, because they oherwise had a terrible gap in their training.

But this individual also had studied , as have I, Okinawan karate, in which I have honor of being sixth dan these days, for many years.

Okinawan karate of severalstyles studied this individual, and in all of those styles, applications of kata, and principles of analysis of applications , were studied and taught.

Yerse, they were.:-)

The styles this individual studied included one which I too study known as Shorin ryu.

Yerse, applicateions were taufght here, but not applications alone. Principles of power and speed and what was called atemi, sharp striking power, your estimable sensei would call it explosive power and so forth, ripping strength, and other things, as well as escaping and evasive footwork, for we of Okinawan karate of shorin branch believe in getting way away from an attack quickly, but also in getting to a weak side of the attacker.

Strong fundamentals were also taught, such that 'blocks ' were understood to hurt attacking limbs, or unbalance people using softer movements so to control.

One block in this system is called torite uke, meaning seizing hand receiving, which actually grasps the hand as it receives.

Other such blocks are the wrapping and seizing(magetori) shuto uke, which eplains itself with its name, and there are still others.

Striking training is conducted with such precision as to smack with accuracy areas of the size of a quarter, which are the size of the activation areas of the kyusho.

Shocking power is trained through a series of foundation excercises so as to deliver maximum damage in all techniques.

When ones foundation training is thus, the applications of the kata moves are hardly 'secrets.'

They are merely techniques one is already taught as basics, including locking and throwing,which are esily enough derived in the kata.

If you still do not believe me, refer to a copy of Funakoshi's Karate Do Kyohan,wherein he gives A: A chart of forty four jintai Kyusho .

B:A list of nine karate torite throws, and states that they come from the kata and for more, refer to the basic kata.

C: A List of seated techniques including jointlocks and groundfighting waza also from the kata.

D: Clearly states that kata and karate contain the techniques of throwing and jointlocking, and that these are in the kata, and shows some wrapping and locking apps of 'blocks"(actually receiving techniques) in his basics section.

E:Also states that the vital oints of karate are the same as used n Judo and acupuncure and moxibustion.

Now, what was that about there being n hidden movements in the katas?

A secret, my friend, is something you don't know.

Many people do not know these things I state here, but Funakoshi did. Did Kanbun Uechi? I thinkhe did, but perhaps he did not teach them. He was supposed to have killed a man in China with a thrust once, to a vital point.Perhaps he dd not want to be responsible for others doing so.

I understand he was most reluctant to teach his art.

Did Kanei know the kata apps? Perhaps not. Certainly he knew the kata, certainly he knew karate in many ways, but perhaps he was not shown all of it.

Perhaps Kanbun was not. Three katas, in a series of kata that ther styles also have similar ones of, but more like nine?

And those related styes all teach grappling, locking and breaking apps for kata moves in addition to kick and strike and punch.Goju ru, Ryuei ryu and ****o ryu, all do.

But, more importantly, so does Shorin ryu, at least the type I do.So doea salso Isshinryu.

The names for these are called as himitsu(secret techniques) , as kaku****e(hidden hands) and so forth.

One does not believe all is in kata. One believes that the mnemonics for all types of techniques are there.Throws must be learnt apart from kata, as locks, punches and kicks, deflections, and points must also be learnt separately. But once learnt , the practice of them is plowed back into the katas.

Jake also says(Jake, Jake-better you dsould know than this) that one believing all is in kata is disrespecting the other arts big time.

Not so, Jake. It was not thought of in those days, and I know because I was there for some of them, that one ids training in a particular style, but that one was training to defend oneself.One used what techniques one could, and learned from anyone who would teach, what they had to teach.

In the sixties and seventies,we cared naught about styles, we thought that was silly. Everybody learned everything they vculd abut everyone elses techniques and no one disrespected anyones art. In fact the word disrespect as a verb did not even exist before the Eighties that I know of.

To resume my theme(Kusanku's thin and piping voice continues in a calm tone:

Jiujitsu once was the same with Kemo, the early karate. On Okinawa even today, many systems exist which teach a sysem of either jiujitsu or torite or Ti as it is called(sort of an Okinawan Aikijutsu) along with the kihon and kata of karate, and state that these are the hidden meanings of the moves in the kata.

Some study only the grapppling parts, but even they have strikes and utilize karatelike kata(like sanchin) as training methods.

I can give details in vast depth here but this should serve for now.

One of the secret teachings in Okinawan karate styles, is that in China, Jiujitsu and karate were one art, which had fou parts, subdivided further into other parts.

This art was c'uan fa or Kempo, and the four parts are kicking and use of the legs, or ti,striking and the use of the hands, or da,throwing or felling or shaui, and controlling through locking, dtriking or pressing vital points or na.The mnemonic is ti, da, shuai , na.

Each of these has other parts. Chinese manals even from the early nieteen hundreds contain such statements.Thes manuals have even got photographs and translated text in them.

One such manual is the Bubishi, used by many Okinawan karate masters. It contains vital points and many kata applications, and a forward by about ten or so Okinawan Tenth Dans from a whole bunch of styles and some Chinese asters, allsayint that tuite and kyusho jutsu are the real secret of the applications of the kata.

not an Uechi master among them, but White Crane, Goju ryu, Tomarite, and Shorin ryu masters, inclding the one who founded the style I practice currently of Matsubayash ryu,Shoshin Nagamine, who clearly states these things.

Things I was taught by a man who had studied from his (Nagamine's) American former son-in-law, as early as 1972.

Things most people stil don't know.

Things that work very well if the basics as I said, are mastered first.

Did you know it is possible to render a man unconscious who attempts to attack you straight in by doing an evasive maneuver as you pull three inches straight up on a piece of hair just above the front of the ear?Using a movement concealed in the Shorin ryu version of a basic kata called Pinan Sandan?

Most people don't.

One should not mock at what one does not know.Nor should one be arrogant in ones'knowledge, for there is always more to be learned.

Wa uke, forinstance, we call tomoe uke(circular receiving ) in Shorin ryu, is the most advanced hand technique in all karate, containing as it does the seeds of all the other techniques.

Principles indeed.As one on here spoke so truly.

Can it be an arm break? The Goju and ****o people teach that as one of its meanings, but only one.

Did the kata inventors mean this to be?According to the Chinese and many Okinawans they did.

But may Okinawans did not learn the whole art, either, and many still do not know this.At least a few do, though , as witnessed by Funakoshi and Mabuni's books, and by the intro to the Bubishi, and by a few small nsignificant souls such as my own self to whom the keys of these techniques were handed in their entirety, possibly as a token of pity on the part of my teachers, who may have thought their student had no chance in life without them.

But Mike, don't be so harsh towards those who believe these things to be true;it may be all we have.:-)

Or maybe not.:-)

Kusanku


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2000 3:14 am 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Kusanku,

Wow, where do I start? Let me state that I feel no shame for what I said as I believ it to be true. I don't think the movements/techniques are hidden in Uechi, nor do I think they are hidden in Shorin or Shotokan. They are merely applications that people came up with later on. Yes, people like Funokoshi and others. If I say there is a kote gatame in a very general wa-uke, would you say yes or no? The answer is both. I can put one there to show you, but it doesn't necessarily mean it was meant to be there for teaching purposes and only taught to those ready for the lesson.

Could I show you where in Uechi-kata that nage waza exist? Sure, if you want me too. It doesn't mean that Kanbun Uechi sensei was taught that these movements were actually throws and that we'll hide them in the kata until you are ready to practice them.

The point is that there is too much mysticism in the arts. Stories are nice. They help us put our founders in the "god" status. But comon, do you really believe that Shushiwa killed a tiger with a shoken fist? BTW, the story of Kanbun Uechi is that a student of his killed someone and he felt responsible.

Everyone wants to legitimize their art and feel that what they train is the best. I can tell by your posts that you honestyly feel this way about Shorin-ryu. That is good, but again, let's be realistic. Are the movements really hidden, or are they just interpretations?

Regarding the "hidden hair pulling" movement out of the Shorin style. To say you will render someone unconcious is a brave statement indeed. Did you know that if I eat a whole lot of chile, I could render half the state of MA unconcious by the *end* results? :-) This goes to another topic, but every body reacts differently to the various stimulation of Jujitsu's Atemi waza or kyushu jitsu or Shorin ryu karate. The statement still is out there though, all that aside, is whether or not that move is the actual movement in the kata or whether it is Nagamine's interpretation.

When you say that many Chinese and Okinawans believe the movements to be hidden does not stand up to the arguement. Many people thought the world was flat for a long time. Majority rules simply does not apply.

Personally, I don't think Funokoshi or Mabuni had the corner on the market. They were individuals who were extrememly educated for their time and were the ultimate opportunists. The world can thank them for that, but to give creedence to two men, who never went to China to investigate their arts (prior to creating their own), regarding the hidden movements of kata is a stretch in my book. Unless of course you are saying that they hid the movements. To that I would simple ask why? At least those like Uechi and Myagi went to China and were taught first hand. If there were hidden movements in Uechi and Goju and these two respected teaches chose not to reveal them, then shame on them.

yours in budo,

mike

PS. I don't quite remember the 70s the way you did. Must be a culture thing. :-)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2000 4:49 am 
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Mike:
To take your points as you give them(Kusanku begins pedantically,<index> finger pointing in air parallel to two upthrusting hairs on otherwise balding but light bulb shaped head, in reedy and piping voice with professorial tone)

'I don't think the movements are hidden in uechi, nor do I think they are hidden in Shorin or Shotokan.'

I do, because the Chinese originals teach that these movements are indeed meant to be there.The difference is, the modern intepretations are not necessarily the same as the original techniques.
You have the right to think what you wish, but several of your statements are , shall we say, not quite the facts, as we shall see.

'If I say there is a kote gatame in a wa uke, would you say yes or no?'

What is a kote gatame? A wrist holddown? Image I would say no. If you mean a kata gatame, a shoulder wheel, yes, you can derive one from wa uke but I do not believe that, as presently taught in judo, to be one of the original applications of wa uke; the body positioning is wrong.

'I can put one there.'

Perhaps you can, but again I do not believe that is one of the original combat apps of a move shown being done by Hindu statues of the god Shiva.

I believe it is a pattern move containing all hand techniques in seed form of ancient unarmed combat.But ancient unarmed combat took no chances,and picking the opponent up over your shoulders while still facing you, is not a technique I believe was an original idea of ancient fighters, but rather a new type throw developed by Kano.

For the original of kata guruma see daito Ryu Aikijujitsu, the throw picks the person up back to you, so you can break the back. Hand pattern of the original throw not like wa uke at all.

'we'll hide them in the kata until you are ready to practice them.'

I don't believe that either, Mike. Thought I made that clear. I believe the way of teaching basics has changed. The way I learned them , the techniques in the katas are obvious but for a few.Like the hair pull one, which by the way won't work on a person with gray or white hair, or no hair, or a buzz cut.For them you have to strike that region.

'too much mysticism in the arts.'Couldn't agree more , MIke, a lot of my time is spent trying to get the bullsnort out of people's minds.But kata apps being intended to be in the kata is not mysticism any more than jiujitsu is mysticism. These are biomechanically sound techniques that work.Of course no technique is magic, or works on everybod all the time. I bet noone o this newsgroup would want to try to ko Mike Tyson with one deadly shoken punch, if Mike was free to retaliate after our attempt failed.

Or how about trying to choke out Rickson Gracie, if he gets to do you next?

'Comon, you don't really believe that shushiwa killed a tiger with a shoken strike?'

I don't know whether he did or not.Didn't Kanbun tell this story, and wasn't he supposed to have been there with shushiwa when this happened? Was Kanbun lying?And wasn't that supposed to have been some old man killed the tiger and not shushiwa, and wasn't it a leopard?-)

I don't know, I wasn't there. Do I believe it could be done?Jury is out, I do know that Indian ahouts diagram elephants vital points such as to control them with a stick and their knees, and that it works, and that some of the points are supposed to be able to kill the elephants. I have the chart.

Could they have charted a tiger's vital points and could shushiwa have known these(he was supposed to have been a tiger boxer after all) and did he use one?

I don't know. Too bad Kanbun didn't video this.:-)I am not gullible and credulous, I did not believe in vital points either until my Shorin ryu instructor demo'ed a few of them, on me.Nothing mystical about them, I firmly believe they are nerve points and that is what we always called them,,and I beileve acupuncture uses nerves too. But I asked a surgeon martial artist and he said that acuuncture apparently empirially discovered certain connections beween nerves that western medicine doesn't know the mechanisms for , yet.

This is not mysticism, which inn my understanding is the practice of prayer, meditation and communion with God, which I believe is real but that is not on topic.. This is not hypnotism, this is not suggestion, projecting ones chi through the air to ko someone without touching them. This is pain, pure and simple.:-)

I stand corrected, mystatement was not in accord with fact, on the Kanbun killing story. It was then , one of his students who killed someone.

I had nderstood from George Mattson's first book that Kanbun killed a bandit with one thrust from sanchin, presumably a shoken since you guys never use seiken.I must have gotten the anecdotes confused. But, I admit when I am wrong and go on.

'I can tell you feel this way about shorin(that it is the best.')It's one of the best I have found after studying many many arts, it has what is needed to accomplish the tasks.If however I had never studied Judo or Jiujitsu, I would possibly be vulnerable to those attacks if I didn't work my theory properly.:-)

Shorin is like this:You get one chance for it to work in an advantageous manner, and if you don't work it right, you're fighting.Like Tai Chi, Aikido, Wing Chun or Jujitsu, if your technique doesn't work right now, at the beginning of the conflict, you have lost your advantage.

You may or may not be able to regain this advantage.

Shorin ryu for success in combat depends almost entirely on trained reaction getting you to an angle right now.It does work in real combat, Iguarantee. But if youdon't make angle, you are squared off, toe to toe, and then what have you got?

Snap, speed and rapid ripping and tearing combinations, a hell of a punch and one hell of a front snap kick, and after that if the oppionent is still standing you better be fast another way.:-)

Judo depends if used in technical sense upon getting unbalancing on opponent at beginning of confrontation, or getting leverage from ground sooner than opponent gets it on you.Fail to do either of these and you lose.

Jiujitsu depends on all of the above or on knowing a 'trick' your oppoent does not, or being able to get position for some trick such that a tained opponent cannot stop it.fail to do this and you lose.

Uechiryu depends upon getting to use the special Uechi attributes on a p-erson not equipped to handle them,or whom ifequipped is less so than yourself, before he can use his on you. fail to do this and... you get the idea.

Where in any of this is mysticism?

'Are the movments really hidden, or are they just interpretations?'

Both.What's the problem as long as they work?Whyargue the point after all? But if you want to, why move in all those strange and silly ways in kata that we never do in kumite, if they are not one man versions of jiujitsu waza?

And of course you can interpret them into your favorite techniques using the same moves too, called reverse engneering, so you have both, and more power and good health toyou.:-)

Now what you said that was not true is that both Uechi and Miyagi, who went to China, chose not to reveal the hidden moves in the kata. Not so, Miyagi did.

All Okinawan Goju people do applications of kata passed down by Miyagi.

Now here is anther fact: Mabiuni I believe dd goto China also, but his teacher was Higaonna for the Naha forms, and Higaonna did study in China , and he taught kata apps to Mabuni.Mabuni also did kat apps for shorin.

mabuni's kata apps, Goju apps and Shorin apps are identical in almost all cases.

Thisis why I say these have been passed down from China. Also the Bubishi shows forty-eight self defense waza demonstrably from Okinawan kata, also identical with Jiujitsu waza.

Thus my case is, not tht Shorin ryu is supreme over all other styles, that wold be a nonsensical statement, as bad as saying that jiujitsu is supreme, meet a Judo champ like you did, you might reconsider that one if you made it but you didn't.

In seminars I used to teach(sniffles for the glory of old, now passed forever, heed this ye mortal men), I would have a couple likely black belts and JKD types, step up, and assume fighting stance, and try to attack before Icould hit them with ko uchi gari makikomi.I always made sure they were back to a mat and able to ukemi, first, because invariably they did so.:-)The waza is a single leg dive to a forty five degre angle and down.

Not because they were unskilled or lacked the warrior mindset, but because they new not this technique nor had no clue, how to defend themselves therefrom.

You don't get your leg out of the way, truth to tell, there really isn't much you can do to stop this, as you may well know.

And in a good solid fighting stance, Hee! Hee!, down you go , Ash over applecart.

Is that maneuver hidden in any katas? Not any which made it to Okinawa, but there are some Chinese systems which do have those.

But mysticism, myth, bs, crap? No.

As for being brave to say I can ko with a hairpull, I have done.I was taught the manuever by my ancient and wizened Shorin ryu teacher, who was a bouncer and veteran of many street confronttions againt unarmed, multiple attackers and weapons including knifes and crowbar. Was he a god? No, but he was the toughest little guy I ever knew, and the fastest, and his scars from when he didn't quite control the blade fast enough showed he spoke truth, as well as that everyone in town knew what had happened.

That and the banged in knuckle on his little finger where he got hit when he blocked the crowbar, just before he o'ed the wielder with a punch to the center of the forehead. The both went to the emergency room but his was for a hand warp, the other guy , it was a concussion.

Teacher's motto? "Karate is a hard fist and a lot of nerve!."

He had and maybe still has plenty of both.

When he did demos, he would invite young gang members to atack with live blades and they did.

He taught me how, but I don't play that, kusanku not foolhardy. Why did my teacher this?Well, he was instructor for Ohio State Highway Patrol members abd he was doing research , he said.

Tell you what though Kimosabe:-), he was the real deal, no master at all, no mystic stuff, just a dyed in the wool butt kickin' dude.

Now myJudo teacher , had been on the US Air Force Judo team.

I just don't come from a mystical martial backgrond as far as my training is concerned.

Do I believe any style or art is supreme? No. But I always tell katrate people two things:

1. Learn Judo or be foreer vulnerable!
2.Think like a jiujitsuman about your techniques.Meaning think about what will actally work and trash the theory if you can not walk the talk.

I like Mr. Nagamine's shorin ryu becuse it has natural stances, free and natural footwork that is compatible with that of Judo, Aikido,Aikijujitsu, boxing, and Chin Na.

The breathing is in and out:-) through the nose, and sometimes kiai through the eyes and mouth when you feel like it,te stepping is natural and flexible and fluid and its all evasion based, and the punches and strikes and kicks are thrown without regard to hip involvement, though you can always do that if you want.Meaning you can punch as effectively from the floor as standing up.

The katas are very much strike and impact riented but the footwork enables aikijujitsu locks and throws which hurt like heck and I can not believe that ids a coinceidence.

Did Mr. Nagamine put the apps there or were they already there?He says they were already there, but also e is a judoka and so on, and so his art does mesh well with others.

I like that.

Were the apps already there? Many Chinese masters say so, four four undred years at least, in writing.

Bubishi, Taiji Classics, Yang Ch'eng Fu, Ch'eng Man-Ching, Yang Jwing-Ming and others all say this is so.

Kusanku

[This message has been edited by kusanku (edited August 04, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2000 8:31 pm 
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The battle continues........:-)

So you really believe the movements are hidden because the Chinese arts that you have seen or practice still teach them. Just as the Okinawan arts have changes and evolved, so have the Chinese arts. How do you know that the ancient Shaolin arts practiced these movements? Maybe some uppity monk decided that his interpretation was better and put them in?? Again, I think we disagree on "hidden" vs. Interpretation.

Kotegatame is a wrist lock, and yes, the way Uechika practice their wauke, I could certainly put on in it and say it was "supposed" to be there. I don't know about the shoulder. I would have to play with that one. Using kataguruma as an example is a stretch. Kataguruma (a.k.a. the fireman throw) is a very different technique. Could you use it as an after the wauke movement? I suppose, but I wouldn't want to use kataguruma with a stagnant partner. Much better if your opponant is supplying some energy and force your way.

Whether Kanbun told it or was related by Tomoyose Ryuku sensei to George Mattson sensei as a fable of sorts is more like the truth. Mattson sensei would have to chirp in on this one. But I don't think it was real and no, I would never call Uechi sensei a liar.

Do you think you could kill an elephant with a single blow? I'd be shocked. Chart or no.

What you say of Shorin Ryu is true of all the arts I have trained and have seen. A different path up the same mountain I guess.

Regarding the movements we would never use in kumite? Why practice them? As you said before, so that we can learn principles and concepts to apply to the "real" techniques that we would use.

When did Mabuni travel to China? I cannot find that little fact. I know that Miyagi's sensei Higionna did travel there as well as Miyagi, but anyway.

I think we agree with much of this although we tell it from a different perspective. I would love to believe all the stories I hear about the orient and martial arts in general, but I am afraid I am a let me see it for myself type of guy. If the hair pull works, I want to see it. :-)

As for the Bubishi and the Nagamine. Two great sources. The Bubishi tells of many wonderful things (I have read the Patrick McCarthy version), but it is not the tell-all of what should be done. Many styles came from China (Northern, Central, Southern) and how much they evolved during the years is too hard to fathom. The Bubishi is one source of millions of practitioners on the mainland. It would be like reading Mattson sensei's book and saying that that was what Uechi-ryu should be like (sorry sensei). He'd be the first to tell you that that is not the case. It is simply a resource for Uechika.

Thanks for the time to banter Kusanku. Keep writing,

mike


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2000 5:25 am 
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Mike says:'The battle continues:-)'

The light bulb shaped head suddenly reappears having performed ryusui or dodging movement to avoid various rhetorical points made.:-)

Indeed, let it continue. Image

'So you really believe the kata have hidden movments because the Chinese arts you have practiced or seen still teach them.'


Yerse.:-)

Insofar as my research over the last thirty-six or so years has shown , all such Chinese art teach these maneuvers as hidden eanings in the forms, and those arts of whic their founders actually documented, such as Yang Style T'ai Chi Ch'uan and Shaolin Long Fist Boxing, actually put the levels of applications into the forms when they developed them.

Also, documentation some eight hundred years old, does show tat Marshal Yueh Fei, creator of Eagle Claw Boxing, inc;luded a series of 108 locking techniques to the vital points with his art, and when you see the moves of these techniques done in the forms he also invented, you understand his intention was to put them there.

Also, Mabuni traveled quite a it, I think he may have gone to China with Gokenki, a buddy of his, maybe wih Miyagi too on the same trip. Not like it was a long way away.

Also you may not know this, but I shall detail Okinawan styles of karate for you, what each one teaches.

Okinawan Kenpo teaches Throwing, locking and takedowns as well as a sequence of self defense jiujitsu like waza, along withbasics and kata. Only later does a student realize that every one of the self defense techniques is found in the twelve kata.

Shobayashi ryu Shorin ryu teaches along with the karate basics and kata, a complete system of Jiujitsu called Eizan-Ryu Jiujitsu.The students are taugt to apply the jiujitsu moves in kata bunkai.

Kobayashi ryu teaches as Ilearned it many kata apps inclusing torite grappling and some Aiki like applications.

Matsubayashi ryu openly teaches bunkai kata, two person versions of the kata, sodoes Kobayashi come to that, as well as a series of self defense waza also secretyl teaches the various apps I mention, including the hair pull, the safest of the techniques I was shown.

Nobody ever believes it will work until I revive them.:-)Sometimes they don't then, but witnesses corroborate it and they are sitting down when they wake up.

Another sixth dan I know, Dr. Elmar Schmeisser, a Shotokan bunakai expert, and a medical researcher, says that if it works the mechanism is that one is yanking up on hair atttached to the scalp directly over nerves which shock the Medullar Raphe, producing unconsciousness.

Anywway, on with the style catalog.Okinawan Goju Ryu teaches applications for all kata, grappling and vital points,called himitsu or secret techniques.By the way, photos exist of a young Chojun Miyagi and a young Bunei Okuhira(Shorin ryu) practicing secret techniques from kata upon each other.

Miyagi is shown clearly grabbing points and presising on the ankle of Okuhira as the kicks to the low section.

An application of the strike from wa uke, to the jaw and the ribs with upper and lower hand respectively, is also seen, as well as some more techniques.

So Nagamine didn't invent these.

Since the Bubishi and other earleir Chinese texts also show these, there is reason t believe these were put into the kata by the creators of the kata.

In the case of TaiChi Ch'uan, the inventor of the yang Style, Yang Ch'eng-Fu , put in a photographic book with accompanying text, the applications to the Yang Style Long Form, and a student of the family was allowed to publish in the 1920's the Yang textbook,which contains the Yang style Two person fighting form, which I possess.

Throws locks, holds, vital points and other secret techniques in the one man form re here clearly shown as in a Judo or Jiujitsukata, there is no room for doubt or disbelief.

That the Okinawan styles except for Uechi ryu and some more commercial styles than it, show without excception two person apps, I have almost demonstrated.

It remains to mention Isshiryu whic contains a series of techniques created by its founder who studied from Miyagi, Kyan and Motobu , and these are called the 'secret scrolls of Issinryu.'They are in fact, Tuite.Locking techniques.

That the tuite and torite techniques of Okinawan are identical to jiujitsuand aikijujitsu, is testified by any who has seen both.

That they are identical in some cases and similar in others to Chin Na of Kung Fu is also pretty evident.Though the incidence of chin na changes in each of the chinese styles, less for instance in Wing Chun and much more in Long Fist, White Crane and Tai Chi Ch'uan.

Soalso in the Okinawan styles, the amount of this stuff taught with the style differs from one to another.

Seidokan Shorin ryu teaches the entire art of Motobu ryu Gotenti(Palace Hand, Okinawan Aikijujitsu) with it.

So may Okinawan Kenpo, other styles teach only part of it.

Matsumura Orthodox Shorin ryu teaches about five entire systems , each more refined than the next, of Toide and Hakutsuruken or White Crane.

Kojo Ryu teaches many apps and ony teo throws, but many vitl point strikes in their welve kats.

Ryuei ryu, a style related to Uechi and Goju karate, which includes sanchin, seisan and sanseirui katas as well as a number of ata no Okinawan but seerl Chinese styles practice, shows a very complete set of apps for the katas, in their videos done by a nith degre Okinawan master.Interestingly, these apps are identical to those shown me in Okinawan Kenpo, which came from China partly through Peichin Shinkichi Kuniyoshi, who taught Shigeru Nakamura, who taught Odo and Oyata, who taught my teacher on Okinawa, etc.In that art.

And in MaTSUBAYASHI RYU, i GOT TAUGHT THROUGH A COMPLETELY DIFFERNET LINEAGE, TECHNIQUES RELATED TO THE OTHER ONES, THOUGH NOT PRECISELY THE SAME, AS NEITHER ARE THE KATA.

Thus, yes, I believe the apps are and were originally intended.What I do not believe is that many today who teach applications of kata,have a very good idea of what these apps or the underlying theory in its wholeness, behind the apps, is.

I think a lot of people roll their own and present it as stuff that has been passed on, and they can make it work because they understand in part, but not wholly.

The real thing is a little simpler.:-)And it works very well.

You want to see the hair pull, well I am too far away for you to see me do it. But if you ask, say, Evan Pantazzi, perhaps he can show it you.Its prety simple after all.:-)

But in no way is any of this stuff mystical.In no way does it make anyone invincible or even a superior fighter. The nature of fighting is such that anyone with speed , power and an aggressive mindset can be a formidable warrior even if they have lousy or no technique.

Physical and mental attributes count for a tremendous amount in a fight, as does that indefinable(mystical?:-) quality known as 'heart' or 'spirit', kiai or determination.

Then there is changes and chances of the world, happenstance, 'luck', and other factors that can make it one way of the other.

What then are these techniques good for?Well, they're short cuts to victory.

If you can ko an attacker by pulling his hair,and you know this, and he attacks with a straight in attack and what attacker does not except the one that comes around behind you and you should turn with him or away from him anyway,then when he attcks straight in, you need a deflection to the arm, a grisp of the arm with torite uke or wrist grab:-),a step to position yourself, Aikido like, alongside the opponent, and then yo need to rip that hand up alongside the head and grab that piece o' hair and it is a very specific piece o' hair indeed, and pull that sucker hard and fast three inches stright up, with the weight n the rear leg and in a neko ashi dachi stance ready to snap kick to low section in case you miss and you might, its a fight after all,ad then you see the opponent make a snappng sound, stiffen up, legs straighten and he falls straight back unconscious.

revivaltechnique involves slappig him on the back of the neck, flat of two knouckle fist alongside tailbone and rub quickly up the back, secverl times, and rub the points on shouler. headache may result and this technique is dangerous to immediate good feeling but not fatal as far as I know.Still, I'd be careful.

It is an app of the last moves in Shorin Kata Pinan sandan, not done like most Pinan sandans I know of.The moves are in cat stance instead of kiba dachi.

Evidence I have points to the apps neing intended by the kata creators, but forgotten or not passed on to everyone, even on Okinawa.Burt passed n to enough that every shool of Shori ryu, Goju Ryu, Ryuei Ryu, Kenpo, and Kojo ryu on Okinawanteach them,though it is true, not all of them to everyone.

I never wanted to know the dang things, even that they existed, but they were given me because I stayed loyal to my teachers longer than anyone else thus winding up the senior student to who all this stuff s passed whether he likes itor not.

Phoooey!:-)

Anyway, lemme tell ya Mike 'n' guys, I wear a real short belt because I don't want it to be used to lower me into a box Image, and also I beileve a lot in combative mindset abd also using attitude to defuse what can be, an verbal self defense,and turning the other cheek in order to come up with a good right cross Image, and I also believe in Judo, and like that, a good Judo throw can end a fight Rght Now, Oh Yes can I get a Witness Amen! Image


Is what I believe, is what.

Kusanku, developing renewed health through regular consumption of Wheaties.Soon tofeature me on the cover along with the other regular members of these forums.
(O' Doom, as Dr. X would say)(Stop that!Ed) Image

And I believe in explosive ripping power that reverberates clear thru the floor and tears the top of malefactor's haids right off.

Kusanku


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2000 12:32 pm 
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Kusanku,

Ok, Ok the white flag is up! I give up! ;-)

We are way off topic anyway. Kusanku, could you give us a little background on you, seeing that you obviously have been around for a while (no age jokes here), and have had some wonderful experiences. It would help us to understand where you are coming form.
Thanks!!

Yours in budo,

mike


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2000 11:39 pm 
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Mike says:'Okay, Okay, I give up! White Flag!:-)'

<Light bulb shaped head of Kusanku, two hairs upthrusting atop the dome, appears.>

It is well, Mike, that you give up, for I was fast running out of ammo myself, and doubt I could have sustained another such post. Image

'How about some background on yourself, so we know where youare coming from?'

Well, I began martial arts in 1964 with American Chop Suey Ryu Bruce Tegner Kitchen Sink But it Works Jiujitsu,then I went to Kodokan Judo in 1967 to 1972,where I wound up as a tournament competitor and btw champ in the Brown Belt category.

The I went to karate in 1972,severalstyles including Shorin ryu in which I am now a Sixth Dan,but in a very independent org, we don't answer to nobody but ourselves, pretty much hate politics,guy promoted me to Sixth is an Eighth Dan , one of the first five Americans to achieve a black belt rank on U.S. soil.

Sorry I can't use names, but the posts should pretty well establish my creds, I will be glad to answer tech questions if some one wants.

I do a little Kuontao, Southern Shaolin Hakka Tiger Style it is, transplanted to Indonesia, and also do Tai Ji, I am a junior member of the William C.C. Ch'en Tai Ji family, thats as close as I can say it,been practicing with them for about three years now.

Done some Aikido , and some Aikjujitsu, no expert in either , done a bit of everything, but Shorinryu is my best.

Am conversant with to some degree many of the styles I detailed for you, know high ranking epxponents of all of them, and am not unfamiliar with Shotokan, either.

Reason I post anonymously is simple, I wish to avoid personalities, and if I used my name, well, it is a small world, isn't it?

My rank is new enough that no one knows I have it but a few so they won't guess that way, anyone who has a guress as to who I may be, e-mail me and I will confirm or not but please don't go public with it.

I am well-known in certain circles, so anonymity is a plus here.

Isaw this jujitsu formum and couldn't resist participating, I love jujitsu, always have, and consider myself as a fighter(ancient though I be:-) a jujitsu man insofar as style is concerned.

What I find valuable in karate and Taiji is the solo kata practice enables you to maintain and even increase your skill in private pracice, done properly.

The fact that the kata also contain jujitsu and counter jujitsu waza in them is a plus, very decidedly so.

Now when comes to Jujitsu you and several of the others on here, Rory and Panther and others, obviously know what you speak of, and so I figure to learn much by hanging out here for a bit.

One must always maintain the framework of a learner, and even approach teaching from a posture of learning,I have found , or one stagnates.

I hve earend that making dogmatic statements requires ability to prove them Image and so, when I make one, I got back-up aplenty. Otherwise, I am interested in learning much, much.

<Kusanku's light bulb shaped head whips down below the horizon and goes into listen and learn mode.>

Kusanku


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2000 1:03 pm 
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Kusanku,

thanks for the info. I don't care if you remain anonymous, so long as you continue to post in the most genuous and cooperative manner. Everybody has something to learn and we can only do it with an open mind. Even if we agree to disagree, it's an open exchange of views.

Thanks for info again,

mike


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2000 3:00 pm 
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Kusanku San,

I will give your hair pull a try.

And although I have an idea of the Bunkai from your posts, please email me at kyusho@erols.com to detail the move. I will then try it in front of a camera and post it to this page. Or at Summer Camp if I get in practice time before Wednesday.

If this is acceptable please email me...sounds like something worth investigating.



------------------
Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2000 5:55 am 
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Mike and Evan-
Thanks for the welcome Mike. Wilco.
Evan- have attempted to e-mail you the exact details dso you can master and post the waza,can't hardly wait!
Oh Boy!
Vindication at last!

Get your catchers two behind the volunteer, he'll straighten his legs and go over straight backwards.

When I did it on the one , that I did, he would have hit on the mat but he bounced off a kicking bag, so you can profit by my almost mistake.

Don't yank too hard, three inches straight up is all it takes. Don't want to sculp anyone. Image

Be careful.

Kusanku


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2000 12:16 pm 
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Kusanku San,

Now I face only one daunting task and that is to find a long haired Uke. You see I do use the hair quite a bit and my students have responded by getting really short haircuts. Their mistake as I now use ST-9 BL-2, M-HN-14..ect...

I'll be back.

------------------
Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2000 9:27 am 
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Evan-
Lookiing forward to te video so everyone can see it with their own eyes. Disturbing habit these young people with the real short hair cuts. Boy, back inna seventies did we have fun, Ha! Image

Irealize you guys make a great deal of use of the hair when available, the quadranture twist around the five pointed shencong grouping making this easy and fun, a cheap way to entertain many.:-)

You are in fact aware that the one I gave you accsses the gall bladder scalp cluster, about three or so points pretty simultaneously.The estern med explanation of this is it yanks up and stretches a mess o' nerves shocking the medullar raphe, and causing unconsciousness.

Anyways, I ope you find you a long haired student, who will promtly get him a haircut after about one time on this quite unpleasant feeling waza, not however an extremely dangerous one.

Troublewith the shencong twist attacks , on topthe head at the quadrants, well suited btw for jujitsu usage, as a lead in to a many a fine throw, is that sometimes the twist and pull actually remove some hair.Or so I hear it has, time or two. Image

Anyway, Evan and Mike, pleasure consulting and working with you guys, enjoy a free spirited exchange every now and again.

Look forward to the video.

Kusanku


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2000 7:46 am 
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I would have to say I agree with Mike Murphy to some extent.

However I also disagree with some stuff he says.

Every kata does have some hidden movements but not as much as people are made to believe.

The problem with traditionalist is they have been brain washed to believe kata is the answer to everything in martial arts.To me this is total crap.

Kata is essence to karate and other traditional arts but that doesn't mean it is useful.Depends why you want to do katas.

The pre-arranged forms as they are known help teach balance,co-ordination,focus and great for body condition,however people in these arts assume that each hidden technique in the katas can be used as some form of self-defense, as that is what we as traditionalists have been told for many years.

Fact is only 20% of the so called hidden techniques would actually help in a self-defense situation and even then sometimes not often.

Ex in goju ry: an empai zuke(elbow strike) in the kata seienchin might work in a situation where a person is grabbing you by both hands around your waist,sleeve or collor area but would not work if pinned against the wall by some one grabbing you at throat or arms pinned against the wall.

Empi zuke in this kata would be the only technique if you're lucky that work all the rest is crap.

In sanseiru the grabbing under the leg and breaking with palm of other hand might work in real situation but the rest of techniques in that kata is pointless.

In shi sho shin only technique that would work is the busting of the elbow.

My point is every kata does have hidden movements,but only 1 useful technique per kata.

All the stances mean crap in a real situation.

Regardless most black belts only teach katas without the bunkai because most don't even know it themselves.To me why learn something if you're never going to know how to apply it?

Many traditionalist believe that the bunkai is the kata its self,they're told a certain way of doing it and stick to it and why is this?The answer is simple ,it's because they're all afraid to get away from tradition,and are brain washed to believe to change the way the masters did it in the past or still do is wrong,the only way that could be right is that way and will always be right.If it was done that way before it must work.

This belief is total B.S.

I speak from experience,I did Goju Ryu and Meibu-kan goju for 12yrs.and was always told that the hidden techniques in each kata are those of self-defense and have been proven to work and that it's the way our masters do it.You also hear stories about how this martial artist or that one did this and that,like how Omayas,Finickoshi(however it's spelt)killed a charging bull with one punch to its head using what he learnt from karate.

There are many stories like this if they happen to be true it's like one in a million chance that any one could do that.

We as people need to wake up and realize what's real and what's not instead of relying on what instructors say.Remember it's a business they say what will keep their students going and know what their students want to hear.

I'm not saying all instructors are like that but many are.

Wake up,traditional arts are nothing more than a bunch of made up moves done in specific orders just as in dancing.

I was fooled for too long about the use of katas but I woke up and realized the truth when I searched for what would make sense to me,went with my gut feeling and now glad I've changed styles.

My style doesn't do katas ,it specifically teaches self-defense also known as street defense.I study the art of Pankration which is Muay Thai kickboxing and Submission Wrestling,now that is what is called realistic self-defense.I get focus ,co-ordination,strength,power,balance and self-defense at same time without doing any useless forms.

If you study the typical traditional arts assuming the movements within the katas can actually save your butt in a real situation,then I have one thing to say"you are totally mistaken,infact it can get you killed"

Practicing everday something you think has potential for a defense move and believe in it truly will be trouble when you really need back up most.Very few movements in karate or other traditional arts will actually do any good,if any at and if one or two safe your life,you are lucky.These chances are very low though.

Kata maybe fun to do but can getting boring after a few years.People go over board in their believes and reasons for doing them and then compare their arts to others claiming their art to be the better one and only realistic art,when infact all traditional arts is a form of expression and nice relaxing movements that help strengthen your outer body and innerself which is very good and important but other than that it's garbage

Traditional arts are traditional regardless of whether it's karate,kung fu,tai chi,the idea is the same ,although different in their own way they all have similarities as they all do katas,it's that simple they won't ever change with the times as they are called just that"traditional".

I know many traditionalist are probably pissed off before they even reach this part of the page even though I'm only giving my opinion and professional experience as a martial artist myself.I've studied martial arts for 14yrs.now and have learnt to recognize what is realistic and what isn't.


I used to be a traditionalist as you well know by now and enjoyed every bit of it,however I wish I had not been in it for as long as I was and prefer my current style of 2yrs.

To be honest I believe pankration or other styles like judo,aikido,wrestling and jujitsu get straight to the point in learning self-defense but people who believe in katas being their art of self-defense instead of knowing the true meaning of katas as I explained above are doing nothing but beating around the bush and fooling themselves

These people will never know the truth until they wake up into the real world of self-defense.

If katas are done for a personal reason or because you just love doing techniques with no reason or basically because to you it is like an other form of dance and body conditioning then it is great and stick to it,but if you want self-defense you need to stop and get to something different.

Hope the best for all of you.


------------------
ASOKA

[This message has been edited by MANNAVARAYAN (edited August 12, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2000 8:17 pm 
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Asoka,

I'm glad you found something that you enjoy doing. I'm sure that you're practice is helpful for self defense. Alot of what you say is pretty pointless, when you consider the people that you are talking to.

A few questions: Exactly what do you think is different today compared to yesterday about the human body, and unarmed combat? Do you think that "pankration" (which by the way is an ancient word used for greek combative games, traditional) has any magical insight that hasn't been around since ancient times, when people used martial arts (unarmed and with weapons) to survive, and fight wars?

I agree that it is good to practice all the things you mentioned, with other people. However, it is also good to practice certain things with full commitment and follow through, in a way that you do not kill or maim your training partner.

I you think that kata is just series of punches and kicks, and that there is only one effective aspect to each one, then all I can honestly say is that you either weren't taught karate the way it was meant to be understood, or you didn't understand the meaning of what you were taught. One of the aspects of kata that I practice, is mentally linking different ways of mass muscle movement, guided by the center of gravity, with possible applications of that movement, designed to maim or kill an attacker.

For every movement, there are many possible applications, depending on the circumstances that one might find themselves in. These applications aren't meant to be used in a tournament, or to beat someone up. They are nothing more or less than different ways to dismantle a human being.

Remember, I'm not talking about my fighting ability. I'm just talking about the reason that there is such a thing as kata.

In another thread you said that the people on this forum were misinformed about kata. You back this up with your twelve years of practice. So, since all of the people you were replying to have much more practice than you do, in several different arts, don't you think that you just possibly might be the one who has been misinformed?

Nothing has ever really changed. Not human nature, or combat. Except for advances in weaponry. Image

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sean


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2000 4:19 am 
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And we thank you, Sean, for your prompt and accurate response to Asoka.

Asoka, I have been doing martial arts for thirty-six years not conting westling which I did since age five,starting with jiujitsu at twelve and going on to four and a half years of Judo at fifteen, then doing karate since 1972.Several styles.

Also Aikido, chin na and kuontao, have trained with boxers and jiujitsu and hapkido guys, JKD people eclectic fighters and so forth.

My findings are quite different from yours.

Sean is right, either you were not taught correctly about kata or you just didn't get it. I am sorry, if you had my experience you would think differently.

I do not know how streetworthy Muay Thai or submission wrestling is on the street, if someone has a gun or a knife, jusst as in a kata technique, you get one chance to pull it off and then you die.

Ground grappling is good for one opponent, what about multiples? And high kicking a la Muay Thai, unless you ust use the low ones, is very dangerous in the street.

As a jiujitsu type guy, I agree with what you say abut jiujitsu and judo and such arts.What you do not relize is that karate kata, when taught correctly, are taught by fundamental elements(kihon) including tai sabaki and ashi sabaki ( body turning/evasion and footwork),Weight distribution,power generation, and then elements of technique including inercept, evade, unbalance,distract, apply, follow through and finish.

Then psychological elements(mental distration/unbalancing, like hand waving behind you as you enter for technique, or a feint,)kiai(focus of concentraition)Metsuke(psych out through eyes), and so forth.

Then training of reflexes like startle reflex to connect to the kata techniques when you are surprised.

Then training of precision and strike delivery into actual surfaces fr depth and power and accuracy.

Then training all elements with a patner until you get it down as a conditioned reflex.

Then you have something other than false confidence in a real fight. I know, I've been there.

Often I only had to use the beginning reflex of guard and footwork and the opponent ran away.They caught me off guard you see, but my reflex appeared so fast to them it sared them. Probably they never knew I was a martial artist, never karate, probably a boxer or streetfighter, but karate it was.

Real karate, right from the kata.

How few are taught this, or taught this way, in the Us or even in Japan or Okinawa.

You say stances are stupid. One uses stance in wrestling and judo and jiujitsu and it is not stupid. In karate also it is not if you know whatyou are doing.

Horse stance is to lock someone down , or to block a throw attempt. You get out of it right afterwards.

Front stance is to project powrer forwards, including in a lock. Watch Yoshinkan Aikido people do this with a wristlock, and put the weight of theiir hips into the wrist of the opponent with a front stance. Good low one, too.:-)

Cat stance is to put the weight of the body into the opoponent through his hand or yours.

Sanchin stance is to lock youself to floor for power, or torque, and to put torque into opponent .

Natural stance is used in karate as well, as in Jiujitsu or boxing or judo. Many have forgotten this but Shorin ryu didn't .
Twist stance is to project power forwards or to set a lock, to trap a leg or to prepare to turn.

Now you mention seienchin kata. The pulling waza right after the hook works fine to pull into a palm strike to lower ribs or kidney but I am sure you were tauht it as a spear hand.Either ur teacher didn't know the real meaning or you weren't told.

You mention the elbow tevchnique. That can be a lockkng technique, a counter to one or a block to a hooking punch.But you didn't know, so it to you is useless except as you said.

You mention only one technique is effective in each kata. You were only taught one effective waza in each kata.

Eah of my kata has at least three effective techniques for each move.

'Course Ido the Shorin kata but the Goju kata are just as effective combat wise, some think more so. I won't get into that one, I think they both have the same techniques and underlying principles in them.

Point is, let's say you are correctand that each Goju kata has only one atual effective technique, which I don't believe for a second, but they have twelve kata.

Then there would be by your statement, twelve effective techniques in all of Goju ryu.

Could you detail each one of the twelve? I can hardly wait to hear which effective one technique exists in Suparinpei.:-)

Most sport fightrers, like yourself, have only a few effective techniques they rely on in a conest or a fight.Boxing only has about eight legal punches,Thai Boxing about five or even four kicks, two elbows and some bxing punches, judo champs usually have about three techniques they use in a tournament.

So if Goju ryu has twelve effective techniques its ahead of most of te sport or arts you mention.

But what if it has more?What if every move in every kata has three or more possible applications, wth variations to those, based on the same underlying principle you train to a conditioned reflex?.

In Shorin ryu our first reflex is to avoid the attack while guarding ourselves, we go instnctively off to an angle you can't hit us at.Then we hit, lock, throw, grab,. or whatever.

We don't wade in and go toe to toe, slug it out or try to go to the ground. We can do it if we have to, but then our particular advantage is gone aND ITS JUST A FIGHT.

We perceive an ttack, we get out of the way, as the kata of our system teach us to. Not all kata in all systems so teach.

Against multiple attackers, getting out of the way gives us time to run or figure out who to hit first.

If we go to the ground, someone got lucky, then we strike or lock or point from the ground.Ty then we do, to get the opponent off of us. If someone mounts you and tries anything, choking or sriking, if you get their right wrist in your right hand, you lock their shoulder out and send them flying off of you with the same motion we use to perform shuto uke(sword hand block).

Is that an intended application? It is by me! Image

If they get you in the guard from the ground,strike down into the groinal area with the tips of the top ovr bottom spearhand as you step left into a natural stance(gunfighter stance).Alternately, pinch the femoralnerves on both inside thighs. Or take a step as in naihanchi kata m, but turn with their legs nder your arms and torque their back wih a Boston Crab, right out of Naihanchi Nidan.

If they try to choke, turn intothe chke,grab their LI 10 on the encircling forearm, and their writ of that rm with the other hand, and excute an e,bow crank with the same movement sed in osae uke(pressing block> ) or to have even more fun,disrt=tract out to left with hand wave, duck nder thr choke to the right and apply sankyo as one does move in Shorin ryu pinan sandan.

If you are on the ground seated and or lying down and they choke you,
both hands grab choking arm below ytour chin, snap it down and then shoot your head out of the choke. It mayhit you in the nose but you'll live.Like the removing block in Naihanchi Two.

But then,karate kata would have to have apps not just for striking, wouldn't they?

But what do I know? I've only been at it for thirty six years and twenty eight of karate.:-)

Kusanku


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