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 Post subject: enough is enough
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2000 9:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
During summer camp, I had the privilege of viewing and participating in some very exciting grappling arts. It seemed to me that some of these were extremely efficient while others were an enormous waste of energy.

One of these "styles" put on a demo in the evening that was extremely well choreographed; however, not at all effective when it would come down to a real attack with a real attacker. Just too many movements. I'm not putting them down, nor do I intend to think that the style of jujitsu I teach is supreme; however, anyone with an ounce of jujitsu experience was looking at "show" and not "do."

I have always told my students that jujitsu is the lazy-man art. Why? Because it was and is intended to use the other person's energy. Movement is conserved for the right moment. Even the Atemi is designed to be an effective strike on its own. Why then would you want to generate your energy to aid your opponant just to get them in another lock? Other than for audiences' sake it baffles me.

Do any of you know of "arts" like this? What do you think of them?


mike


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 Post subject: enough is enough
PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2000 11:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 6022
Location: Mount Dora, Florida
Good points Mike. The beauty of the camp is that we can all participate in many variations of self defense arts. Just as there are differences in Uechi practice, there are similar variations in all systems.

An open attitude works both ways.


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GEM


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 Post subject: enough is enough
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2000 5:05 am 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Sensei,

Although it may sound as if I'm not being open minded, it was not intended to be that way. I merely mean that it's a matter of practicality, not showmanship. One can be the open minded person in the world, but if a technique is overkill and unpractical, then that's what it is. No offense intended to anyone. There are many techniques I consider useless in Nihon Jujitsu and I've heard many say that about some Uechi techniques. What does that mean?

Something to ponder???


mike


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 Post subject: enough is enough
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2000 7:04 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
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Location: Ptld OR USA
Mike-

I'm assuming the style and instructors were competent when I say this...but it seems that the things that impress novices leave me cold and the things that impress me novices don't even see. The demonstrators may have just underestimated the audience.

A friend of mine, Stan, is Wally Jay's NW representative for Small Circle. One of the first times I met him he grabbed an uke and made him dance, masterfully controlling the transition through lock after lock... and I asked him what was wrong with the first technique that he had to change.

I thought it was funny.

Rory


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 Post subject: enough is enough
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2000 10:04 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 268
Are we talking about lock-flow drills here?

I use these as instructional mnemonic aids to remember techniques, like a alphabet of kansetsu waza. I have one that goes through ten locks.

I certainly do not expect that the first one won't work.

having said that it also makes a good demo.Shows a range of possible jointlocks.

But: In Judo, we do transitional flow gorundwork, similar to this. Now in a tournament, when I slap a Kesa gatame or a juji gatame on someone, they not gettin'out o' that hold.If they do, something went horribly wrong.

But in trining, we let 'em get out to practice follow up after follow up hld, and let them get us in the hold to practice escapes agaisnt those whoare less than perfect in their execution.

I didn't see what you saw, but of course I have seen syles less effective than others, or practitioners that seem less effective than others.

I have also observed dilletantes who jump on this or that bandwagon.But when someone real grabs you, by Gum, there is no mistake. If they want you in one hold, youstay there. If they want to tansition you, transitio you they will.

But there are of course those who say they know jujitsu, and took some lessons or got them some tapes, and when you get out n the mat with them, well, hey! That's some fun, hah, guys? Image

Had a guy once come into the dojo, from an Aikido/JKD Club taught by Lord knows whom.

I demo'ed an irimi nage slowly, and he got up and said, when I asked if it felt real, 'Not realenugh for me! ' And came charging straight in to me with a punch!::-)

Clotheslined him straight out in the air and he hit with a thud.'That real enough?'

'choke.'"Uh-yeah.'

Good, I said cheerfully. Then we don't have to do it more than half speed. Image'

First open the wound, Then rub the salt in , I always say.:-)


Kusanku


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 Post subject: enough is enough
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2000 12:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Rory and Kusanku,

Maybe you are right and what I saw was a drill of sorts. I really couldn't tell you for sure it wasn't. However, after working with them and seeing what this eclectic system does, I would put my money on this is what they thought worked for real. Again, I apologize if I am wrong, and if it works for them so be it. I don't think it was very practical.

You know what they reminded me of? Someone practicing Ed Parker style Kenpo. I've only seen it a half dozen or so times, but if I remember correctly, don't they through 5 or 6 atemi-like attacks before throwing the "real" attack?

mike

PS. Iriminage is the balls!!


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 Post subject: enough is enough
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2000 5:21 am 
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Location: Newton, MA
Mike,
For good or ill, I missed the particular demo of which you speak (though I think I know who it was), but I have seen similar things in the past.
It's very easy, when you have a partner (not an opponent) who is willing to stand there and let you fail at them and twist them any which way to come up with some stuff that makes the Matrix look pale and tame by comparision.
Of course, if you try to do it to someone who isn't co-operating with you, it doesn't do a thing.
Flow drills are a seperate thing. The sort of phenomenon I believe you witnessed was simply bad training...if I understand you correctly. Lord knows, that's what I've seen before.
In the end, most good jujitsu I've seen passes the K.I.S.S. test: Keep It Simple Stupid.
Which goes for anything else that works in combat too.

Jake

------------------
Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan

[This message has been edited by Jake Steinmann (edited August 20, 2000).]


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 Post subject: enough is enough
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2000 9:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 268
Mike-
Irimi nage is, in fact, the balls.:-)

Thing is I did not see the dmo- wish I had, sounds entertaining.

I use the drils for some purposes, and like you and Rory, teach the separate technique for the finality of it.

In similar case, the kempo or karate trained wil also note the advisability f acticing single tecniques for real power, and many techniques for fluidity, a la kata.

As for the Ed Parker Kempo. I have worked out with some very good exponents f this sytem, and what looks like slap and tap stuff , called 'positional chacks,'actually turns into something else again when correctly applied.

I mean the Parker system, has a lot of flash and dash looking stuff, but Ed, hwe wasn't no fancy Dan kind of guy.

All that stff that looks like muitple atemi in demos, and lots of people may not know what they are doing but Ed did write this stuff down,turns out to be hooking and trapping to incoming attacks simultaneous with distraction strikes to ears, eyes and groin , followed by a three technique combo like a jab hook cross type deal, more like boxing perhaps than arate or Okinawan Kempo, but effective nonetheless.

But, I dunno- to each their own. I was always intrigued by their stuff, never took it though,they had , btw, the world's Longest katas.:-)

As for good jiujitsu, I know that when I see it. You got Nihon Jujiytsu and it is good, BJJ is good, Rory has Sosuishi Ryu and it, is good and has been for a log time, too,:-), and then there is Judo and It is good as well.

Yoshinkan and Tomiki Aikido, and real Daito ryu Aikijujitsu , is good, and some others as well.

But there is a lot of stuff called jujitsu out there that ain't(jiujitsu Or good), imo.

I have Wally Jay's Small Circle Book, basic and seems practical, and I really like George Kirby's Jiujitsu stuff.

Bruce Tegner's stuff is even applicable.

But when I see a dance, its just a dance, if there is no safety, no power, no effect, that is no good.

But like I say I didn't see the demo.

Kusanku


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