Reopened!!! The jujitsu forum will focus on traditional and non-traditional Jujitsu/grappling arts.

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Postby kusanku » Sun Aug 13, 2000 4:51 am

Hello again from Kusanku, ancient and wizened practitioner of martial arts.

But first, thanks to Rory for the enlightening description of the contents of Sosuishi Ryu Jiujitsu, an ancient and venarable not to mention effective from all I hear, style.

As far as I know allJiujitsu, including Gracie, is taught in a step by step prearranged manner which later one changes to fit the applications.

Judo too has kata, and I notice Asoka did not respond to this.

Karate does have two person kata, yes it odoes, but not all styles teach it, not all others teach it openly or to everyone.

In Shorin ryu we actually have bunkai kata done with a nuber of opponents in a prearranged manner. Matsubayashi ryu guys are free to back this up, here.

We also have prearranged kumite , but designed to teach seven principles of kumite.

Not contest kumite but fighting.

Goju ryu usually teaches a whole set of bunkaifor each kata, usually thre per session. Asoka was obviously not shown these.

One can only wonder if it was lack of knowledge on art of the teacher or something else.

Many karate styles have two person kata, some are called prearranged kumite, some are called two man fighting forms. In China almost all styles have these except ones that have forgeotten them. In Okinawan,styles, sometimes these are present and sometimes they are not, sometimes they are more recent inventions and sometimes not.

Often, and in all Okinawan stlyes I ever studied personally(I am not an Uevchi practitioner for instance) m a jiujitsu like self defense series or even a complete art s taught parallel to the basic karate techniques. These in English we often called 'grb arts' or just self defense.

They are very effective.They incorporate escape, reversals, locks, holds, and strikes, and sometimes throws. Only later does one find the techniques and there underlying principles come from the kata f the art.

Asoka says his teacher told him kata means only a one man excercise with strikes, blocks, punches and kicks.

What can I tell you? That is wrong.Kata includes that, but also includes two person drills.

In my shorin ryu there is no free sparring, only kata, techniques, one and two and more person drills and kumite excercises, prearranged and semi feree style.

When you defend yourself you move just as you train, fast, light and unpredicatable.

If you come at me straight, I bisect your angle of attack and move into your blind spot.Or I take the other side and attack the center.

Both hands come up to guard and I unbalance the attacker, get position and execute. And I mean Image


It s not an art used to attck people simply because it is designed as a reactive art.

A lot of karate used to be like that but tournament emphasis changed it.We didn't change.

Kta means all formal practice . Kata is not all rigid or always done the same order. Here Asoka shows what level he ddidn't reach. Image

In our kata basic level the kata are done in a fixd way. Intermediate level is done with a different timing facilitating different apps. Advanced level is different timing and dfferent order odf techniques, finally ending in a spontaneous karta performance. People whi reach this level are dangerous to attack because they will create a technique or sequence to deal with the attack without conscious thought, as a spontaneous act of defense.If they don't know what they are going to do, you sure don't! Image

Now having said this, it is at this level that one must be sure to have mastered what comes earlier.Otherwise you may have a clever move that does not work, where the other guy may throw a right hook, which is not necessarily clever but which may work, (thanks to Larry Niven for the words).It is here that the REGULAR AND RELENTLESS PRACTICE OF KATA pays off.

But with thre times the twelve yerars of experience, I was lucky to find this out.

Or maybe I'm just a dumb traditionalis that doesn't know about fighting. I wish I didn't.

Rory there does, though, don't you, Rory?When its your job, its your job.

How come is that, you and me got the same idea about kata practice, be it jiujitsu or whatever?

But that is the way its taught, kata, and there is a reason for it.

Kusanku.(Anybody seen, my old Friend Genjumin, he was on here now he's gone:-)
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Postby MANNAVARAYAN » Mon Aug 14, 2000 10:55 am


Hello again.I like your response.

Well here I go again.In goju ryu we were taught bunkai for our katas,but that doesn't mean those applications would work in real self-defense situation.

We also did some two man pre-arranged drills in goju ryu as I'm sure they do in every martial arts.It's useless obviously as we both know or any other person knows to learn techniques without applications,so I won't argue that,because I totally agree with you on it,however I wouldn't call two man drills going across the floor whether pre-arranged or not,kata.

To me that's just learning the application of a kata .For every kata I ever learnt we practiced the drill for it.If a kata had a block and strike or punch and kick,we practiced those techniques going across the floor with a partner after doing the kata,so we did always learn the application.

My point is not that we don't have two man applications but that there is a difference between doing a kata and applications.

Doing the kata is going across the floor with no partner in a pre-arranged manner and ending exactly where you started at least it's like that in Goju Ryu,then there is the two man drills we have using techniques in the kata,the drill aren't the kata themselves,they're the applications,there is a difference.

Now my other point is that the kata is useless as self-defense so if the kata is useless which determine the techniques being used for the drills then the drills will be useless as well.I am sorry I should have explained myself better for what I meant.

Each movement is used in different ways that is correct as you said that's why there are not just one or two katas but the the thing is that even though different they are backed up by other pre-arranged movements.The students don't change the way a kata is done,it is always taught the ways your instructor(s)teach it and the instructor before them had learnt it.

By the way you said "Shows what level Asoka didn't reach".

Well I do not know what level you think I could have reached,but for your information I have ni dan(second degree black belt)in Goju Ryu and Meibu-kan karate.

"It's not an art to attack people because it's simply designed as a reactive art"

I agree that it is exactly that,I have to be ignorant not to know that after so many years of having done karate and having taught it as well in past.

That is the whole problem with it,what I mean is that how are you supposed to react to something if you do not know how to attack yourself.That is like saying to a person here's a knife and use it to save your butt yet doesn't even know how to use it as an attack.It is physically impossible to defend against something you do not know how to do yourself.

Many schools but not all teach how to defend without teaching how a technique could be used to for an attack.

You cannot block a punch if you yourself do not know how to throw a punch,same philosophy and most traditionalists do not know how to throw a proper punch since they punch from the waist position.Keeping your hands at that level to throw a punch is dangerous ,because it leaves you open.

The thing that doesn't make sense is in kata you learn to punch with hand near waist level,yet when you spar you keep your hands up.Why practice something you won't even use when you sparr.No one keeps their hand down when sparring so why learn it any different in a kata.

Okay now for the Judo part which is difficult for me to answer since last time I ever did it was when I was 8yrs.old but I will do my best to respond as I was asked to.

I believe that Judo is similar to submission wrestling correct if I am mistaken.
In submission wrestling we do some throws but not as many as in judo we do mostly just ground work when it comes to the grappling.

Some techniques may be similar to both judo and jujitsu as we do have reversals,throws,chokes,armbars,leg locks,knee locks,paint brush technique, elbow,from different positions we call side body,reverse side body,mount and guard position etc.

If I am correct in judo,a student watches an instructor do a technique on a student he has chosen or on an other instructor to demonstrate how a move is done,after seeing him/her do it three times the students try the techniques on a partner over and over again until they have it down correctly and then learn to apply it.

It is done this way in both muay thai and submission wrestling as well.

So let me ask you all is this what you guys call kata?I don't.Why?well because these movements aren't always taught in a specific way and asked even by the instructor to create their own form using same technique he/she has taught them.They want students to find many ways the techniques can be used not just how they see the teacher do it.

In kata you follow exactly how you see your teacher do it,sometimes while he does it with the class or just watches.If not done exactly taught a kata is considered wrong.

In judo a technique is right if done the way teacher has shown but the move is never considered wrong if used for different purpose.

For example. If a student learns foot work to throw person over his shoulder or hips like taught that's fine but if same foot work is used to trip person or roll him to ground,doesn't mean the foot work is all of a sudden considered wrong.Foot work is still same.

But in many traditional arts if a technique is not done exactly the way each kata shows it,then it is considered wrong just because the katas show it differently,yet it is the same technique.This is because in styles like karate,kung fu ,tae kwon do,whatever it is,the techniques are set movements,even though each style has there own forms.

Judo does not I believe have any particular way of applying a technique,that is why in other arts bunkai(applications) exists.If bunkai exists it is because the moves have a certain way of using it.

Judo and other arts like it if I am correct don't have certain applications,they teach techniques and use it but not in a set way.The teacher teaches the techniques and just gives examples of how it can be used and students try it that way but also try it in other ways they find possible.

Remember though I am assuming that it is the way it is done in Judo,I know it is for us in muay thai kickboxing and submission wrestling.If a technique doesn't work for us while sparring in away we were taught then we can use the same technique in a different way we think might work or just have another technique for back if we wish.


[This message has been edited by MANNAVARAYAN (edited August 14, 2000).]
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Postby MANNAVARAYAN » Mon Aug 14, 2000 11:19 am


I forgot to thank-you for your response to finding an Aikido school in Vancouver,BC,Canada.so thanks.

Nice comment,you're just too funny,asking why a guy like me who hates kata would want to do aikido.

I never said I hated doing katas I just said I think they're useless doing them for self-defense purposes,after all I did them for 12yrs.I just needed a change and needed to get into something that some may consider just completely different and others may say too aggressive,depending on opinion.

Anyways I have responded to your comment in that forum so check it out.

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Postby mikemurphy » Mon Aug 14, 2000 2:15 pm


Thanks, and welcome to the forum. Your comments have, I've seen, perked up a little interest. I am sorry I have not responded earlier, but i just got back from GEM's Summer Camp, and BOY, did you guys miss something!!!

Anyway, as Kusanku said, Kata is nothing more than a "Formal Exercise." A pattern of movements designed to show form and technique sometimes in a simplistic manner, sometimes not. Some people claim that kata was devised so as to not forget the techniques of a particular system, while some claim they were created to hide the movements so that others could not steal them and incorporate them into their own system. Who knows. The point is Uechi-ryu has kata, Goju-ryu has kata, Judo has kata, most, if not all, of the traditional jujitsu systems have kata. Perhaps Pankration does not. Probably because it is a modern system and simply a combination of the arts you mentioned. Perhaps, like boxing (any type), there is simply no need for it. Who knows?

Kusanku mentions that he does bunkai (the application/interpretation of kata) as do many sytles (Uechi included). Call them kata if you want too. It's a matter of semantics. Formal exercise/application of kata in a prearranged way? It's all the same. They are really just tools to get the student to learn the particular art in the most comprehensive manner possible. I would put them in this order:
Junbi undo (warm-up exercises)
Hojo undo (Aiding exercises)
Kata (Formal Exercise)
Bunkai (Application of kata)
Yakosoku Kumite (Prearranged Fighting)
Jiyu Kumite (Freesytle Fighting)

Whether I am practicing my Uechi or my Jujitsu, I can use that format.

You mention that you believe kata is useless. I'm sorry you feel that way, especially with your Goju training. From what I have read of Miyagi sensei, Yamaguchi sensei, Nobetsu sensei (who I have worked with on a number of occasions), Uechi sensei, Kano sensei, Mifune sensei, Ueshiba sensei, etc., etc., etc., they would not think the same. They are/were awesome kata practioners. Why did they practice their kata with such intensity and spirit? Because their arts are defined by their kata. The techniques learned in kata may not on a superficial level be practical, but what you learn of them allows you to defend yourself in a practical manner. Put it this way. You need something to expand upon to get better, don't you? You learn simple addition and subtraction before you learn physics.

What I learn from kata, especially when I bunkai the form is too much to explain, but what about FORM, distancing, timing, mushin, power, speed, etc. Can I get these by simply fighting all the time? Maybe, but you wouldn't be around for long.

Okinawan karate, for the most part, "budo" arts, not "bujitsu" arts anymore. Since the 1600s there has been not need to learn the arts to survive. Now they are learned to perfect movement, etc. If you don't find them realistic in this manner, why do you train them?

As for learning attacking movements. I know a little of Goju, and from what I've seen, like Uechi,it is a counter-attack system. Why would you want to know how to attack someone? When you attack you open yourself up in some manner. That is what a good Goju or Uechi practioner waits for. Even in knife fighting, the person who attacks is the most vunerable. The opinion that I can't block a punch, if I do not know how to throw one is ludicrous. I can block all day without throwing one. Your kata, as well as mine (in either the Uechi or the Jujitsu) shows a block of some sort before the punch or kick is thrown. That position needs some re-thinking.

The kata in Judo is well defined, as it is in Nihon Jujitsu, Aikido, etc. You can open up numerous books and see the kata written out and in pictures. The point is does every instructor teach it the same way. That would be impossible. Personal idiosychracies would get in the way. Are you doing your Goju kata the same way as Miyagi or Higiaonna? Absolutely not. There has to be evolution in the arts. As much as we try to keep them the same, they will change (yes, I'm sorry Kusanku, but I'm speaking of your Chinese arts as well).

These are things to consider Asoka. Your opinion is your opinion, but keep your mind open and really look into your arts and I'm sure you will see past the superficial aspects you mention. Twelve years of studying is a long time, but you have a lifetime of looking at it.

Thanks for joining our little group!!! :-)

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Postby Panther » Mon Aug 14, 2000 4:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Posted by MANNAVARAYAN:

If there are katas involving two people how come in the 12yrs. of my karate experience and going to tournaments,I have never seen a man do kata that was not done on his own.

(snippage for brevity)

My point is not only are katas pre-arranged they do not use a partner to practice on which makes it difficult to be creative and understanding of how to change technique to technique without always having to rely on something happening the same way at same time.

If katas involved two people they can't possibly be pre-arranged at least not with contact anyways.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Posted by kusanku:

Goju ryu usually teaches a whole set of bunkai for each kata, usually three per session. Asoka was obviously not shown these.

One can only wonder if it was lack of knowledge on part of the teacher or something else.

Many karate styles have two person kata, some are called prearranged kumite, some are called two man fighting forms.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Posted by MANNAVARAYAN:

Doing the kata is going across the floor with no partner in a pre-arranged manner and ending exactly where you started at least it's like that in Goju Ryu,then there is the two man drills we have using techniques in the kata,the drill aren't the kata themselves, they're the applications, there is a difference.

(snippage for brevity)

By the way you said "Shows what level Asoka didn't reach".

Well I do not know what level you think I could have reached, but for your information I have ni dan (second degree black belt) in Goju Ryu and Meibu-kan karate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummmm... 'scuse me... just a little interjection here... Image

Meibu-kan is a branch of Goju and there are at least a half dozen different branches of Goju-ryu. I've actually studied two different branches and done some work with a third.

I'm not here to defend or dispute anyone's opinions. The fact is that Meibu-kan specifically does have two-man kata. Each half can be learned and practiced individually or put with it's counterpoint to make the two-man form. In fact some of these are directly Yagi-sensei's legacy. Both in Meibukan and in the branch associated with An'ichi Miyagi-sensei there are two person forms. I must point out that the ni-dan level hasn't (necessarily or usually) learned them (depends on the sensei) and that these two person kata are meant to be dynamic... meaning that the moves can and should be "changed up" to keep both kake and tori "on their toes".

Additionally, Nippon Shorinji Kempo has kata that are also dynamic and predicated on two halves that fit together.

Finally, (most) ju-jitsu styles that I've studied referred to the practiced techniques as kata. In ju-jitsu (and in the Shorinji and Goju two person forms), practice in the dojo was always done with both kake and tori, but when alone, even the ju-jitsu techniques (yes, even throws) can be practiced. Using an obi around a tree can be quite effective in practicing throws and certain grappling techniques.

Why don't you see two-person kata in tournaments? Primarily it is because these competitions are individual vs. individual, but I have seen two-person forms performed at tournament before...

Course, I'm just a beginner of ~20 years dabbling in the arts, so I could be totally wrong...

[This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 14, 2000).]
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Postby SEAN C » Mon Aug 14, 2000 10:05 pm


Just something to think about. When you are attacked in "real life", you are not taught to do a kata, from bow to bow, ending up in the exact same spot, while the attacker either dies laughing or kicks you in the head many times. It's a practice, a training tool. You might however, without even realizing it, use ONE principle or ONE application of movement that has been internalized in kata, to instinctively react to an attack. Fast reaction time and muscle memory can save your life by giving you the opportunity to either run away, or stop the threat. Try thinking of kata as teaching you how to move, and how to stop the attacker from moving. No self defense system in the world will help someone unless they can keep from freezing up. One also has to develop the mindset and intent to allow themselves access to the brutal and effective applications of body movement.

Every move in kata, contains principles and applications of attack. As you stated, in a "real" Image situation that calls for "real" self defense, one has to stop the threat. In the most basic instance, either low block, middle block, or rising block, followed by lunge "punch" (aargh) are movements that can be applied as startle reflex parries, powerful strikes to nerves, leverage combined with kyusho to release joints for dislocation, escapes from holds followed by general mayhem, and could even be used as outright assassination applications when applied to the head and neck, using release points.

You can look up the U.S. army combatives manual on the internet and I bet if you really look, you'll see every movement somewhere in your katas. Of course these would only be a fraction of what's hiding in there.

I agree that many people are taught kata without any real understanding or knowledge of what they contain. I'm sure I'll be learning new things from kata for the rest of my life, without getting everything. That's part of the fun.

About the punching from the waist, where do you usually have your hands when walking down the street, or engaging in conversation? I bet you don't walk around with your clenched fists in front of your face. This position also can be looked at as pulling and locking a limb against the body, at the center of gravity, which allows you to use the whole weight of the body in manipulating that limb. If you find your fingers digging into certain points, while applying leverage on the arm/leg, so much the better for you!

The way I look at is that you do the kata with correct form, and hopefully your body will move with power, speed and precision all on its own, when it needs to. Fact is, your movement then will be a very abbreviated, thus much quicker version of how you practice.

Geez, I'm all worn out.


[This message has been edited by SEAN C (edited August 14, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by SEAN C (edited August 14, 2000).]
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Postby MANNAVARAYAN » Tue Aug 15, 2000 2:12 am


Your completely correct about Meibu-kan,it is another branch of Goju Ryu in fact there is not much difference.The katas are just a different version of the ones in goju otherwise it is basically the same.

Actually Meibu-kan has two to three man forms if that is what you want to call them,I call them applications.Let me explain what I mean.

We have a kata done by ourselves called Jo chu gai(high,middle,low block)when doing the application we can do this form with just one person if doing the same moves in a straight line hard to explain in writing or we can go from side to side then straight down middle using 3 people for these same techniques as if doing kata.Take away the students you have the kata.

Mike Murphy:

Actually Pankration is far from being a modern martial arts it came from the time of the gladiators as time went technique started to be used and helped improve the figthers.Reason not many people know of it yet is because it was a lost art,having been banned because of its aggresiveness and how dangerous it may be and is only now coming back into existance.

Pankration hasn't been around for many years until now and is slowly spreading internationaly.It is very much however similar to shootfighting in some ways.

You would probably from what I've read of your definition of kata consider our art to have kata as well.I know if you were to watch a class of pankration you would call what we do before the sparring two man kata.In pankration we just consider it practicing techniques on each other.

You mentioned just admitted that kata is not pratical perhaps without realizing it.

"Katas on a superficial level may not be practical,but what you learn of them may defend you in a practical manner"

I'm confused.If kata in a superficial way is not practical how can it possibly be practical for defense that makes no sense.

Forms which are supposed to have realistic hidden movements are obviously then supposed to be realistic for self-defense .Self-defense relies on the techniques in the kata,so if the techniques in the kata are not practical as you just mentioned then neither are the techniques for self-defense,so which one is it ?,either they're practical or not,can't be both at same time.

I do agree however that techniques in kata are not practical,that has been my point the whole time.

You asked if me if you need something to expand or not just as you need simple addition and subtraction to do physics.I really like your compares,shows you're quite a wise,smart person unfortunately we however have a disagreement,here.

I assume you are asking me if I think you need to know the basic before you can continue with something whether it is physics or not.My answer is of course "YES".

However I would have to say kata is not a basics for self-defense.Basics for self-defense is practicing proper stance(natural stance only)and learning how to properly punch,kick or block and combinations before going to next level.

I agree kicks in karate,kung fu,hapkido or whatever would work even if not as powerful as kicks in muay thai ,they do however need to use just more than kicks with foot,how about knees and shins.The stances and punches and blocks of these arts totally ruine it.To claim to know basics before going to next level they first need to be taught properly and be reasonable and effective.

It is too bad that traditional arts don't have anything but straight punches,well at least in goju anyways.Arts like this need to have more than just one kind,they need to have hooks to body and head,uppercuts or they limit themselves .

If a person in karate for example went to block a punch going in shiko dachi stance(horse stance)he wouldn't survive very long on the street.If some body went in shiko stance ,I would kick him right in the groin or back of knee and the only thing he would be hitting is the ground.If a traditionalist went to hit me with one of his traditional type punches,one hit to the solar plexus and he would be out like a light or I could break his nose since he would be leaving him self open.

You basically say at point in here that it is basically better to have person to come at you then you to him because you leave yourself more open.Well I disagree,regardless if you guys attack or wati and respond you gets will get killed in real situation if you keep your hands down as in katas.

Regardless of art one part of your body will be open you don't have enough arms to cover whole body,there is a better way to blocking and punching.It is easier to block a punch with your hands up and leave less of your body open for a strike,punch or kick.

If you wait for person to attack and he knocks you out who says you're going to have a chance to fight back to defend yourself,where as if you don't even give the person a chance to attack because you attack first you have higher chance of winning.

If katas are effective basics before going to next level or sparring then answer this question:Why is it in the UFC(Ultimate Fighting Championships)no traditionalist has ever one?.The only ones that ever win in there are Muay Thai Kickboxers,Jujitsu and Pankration fighters.There has been karate people and other traditionalist fight in there and I am yet to see or hear about one of them winning.

The reason to this as many martial artists should know is that they teach and have been taught strictly self-defense and street defense while others waist time with katas believing they will get some where with them.

Now for the question,why do I do katas if I dislike them so much?

Answer: I never said I disliked them,I just said if doing them for self-defense purposes then it is useless.

Also I don't do my katas any more because I am just interested in the self-defense purposes of martial arts.
Katas I can admit be fun to do,but I have done enough in my martial arts time and now want to do it for just learning street-defense which typical traditional schools do not offer due to lack of self-defense.

No traditionalist knows anything about self-defense they just like to think and believe they do when in reality they don't.They just know how to work on doing katas and improving on them.Their sparring is not realistic.

My true opinion.

Of course traditionalists who teach or have mastered their katas know nothing more than moves but have brain washed students to believe what they also believe.

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Postby mikemurphy » Tue Aug 15, 2000 3:40 am


Thank you for the information about Pankration. I have looked in several books and found nothing mentioned. It must have really been "lost." I will, however, keep my eyes open.

Superficial vs. Practical? You must read what I said. I can look at anything superficially, no matter how complicated it is. However, what I said was that kata taken at a glance does not "look" practical. Of course it doesn't. Nobody is going to come in on you in the "perfect" manner so that you can execute the technique as described in the kata. But what you are learning is the how to move so that you may use bits and pieces of the technique in a real situation. Do you practice any blocks in Goju? Of course you do. I've seen the Goju katas dozens of times, however, you many not perform three or four of them in a row in a real fight as you do in kata. Or maybe you may not perform a particular sequence seen in the kata in a real fight. Perhaps you will only do the block aspect or the kick, etc. That's where it is practical.

2. Kata is not a place to practice self-defense? Here you mention stances as an example. Where do you practice your stances? I practice them in kata, so I don't see your argument.

3. Concerning attacking vs counter-attacking.

Where did I say I would keep my hands down. My hands would be up at the first sign of trouble. Waiting to counter attack IS the safest of the alternatives, and yes, you open yourself by attacking. By the nature of exposing yourself to the attack you open yourself up, regardless of any art that you are speaking about. Ask any grappler or Judoka. If attacking is the "better" way to go in your mind, why study any martial art. Most are designed to be defensive or counter-attack systems unless otherwise altered to a more modern form.

4. Aah, the UFC question. Where do we start with this one that hasn't already been covered in other conversations. Well, first of all, even the Gracies have "Katas" that they practice, so there goes that argument. Second, the UFC is a sport, not an art. There are rules that severely handicapp all competitors, so that is not a really good example. I am not, btw, putting down the people who perform well in those competitions. I have just recently trained with a couple of guys that do this style and they taught me quite a few things.

What you choose to do with your training is up to you and we all wish you many happy years of practicing; what you should consider is that you don't have that many years of training under your belt yet, so in another twenty years, you will see things in yet another different light :-) (no offense intended). We all change, and your turn will come. I say this out of your last line that you wrote. Don't put down those many masters who have passed on their kata to their students. These are people who had to go through much adversity in their lives, such as we will never know, with only their arts to get them through. History is the real proof.

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Postby kusanku » Tue Aug 15, 2000 4:01 am

Is everyone grea on here or what?
Panther and Sean and Mike and everyone. Asoka, thanks for the good thoughts.

What I meant by what level you handn't reachedis what Panther meant. For your perspective's sake.I am a sixth dan and did't get tolearn the advanced kata apps of Okinawan Kempo until I was fourthdan.

After twenty years in that art alone, after four and a half years of Kodokan Judo before that, and thre and a half years of jiujitsu.

I know Meibukan Goju ryu has two man katas because I have done some of them.

The two man version of Gekisai Dai No Ichi is a particular favorite of mine. My teachher learned it from Master Yagi and also Master Toguchi of of another type Goju, on Okinawa.

At an all styles master's workout the Shobukaiused to get together and hold, all yudansha could come and watch.

As for Judo, yes, it's taught similar to what the other grapplig styles are taugh:Usually we strt with taiso, then some footwork excercises, and always breakfalling practice. Then warmed up, the throws are taught, broken down into their component elements.Uchikomi is done, throwing but stopping as you unbalance the opponent and vice versa.

Then we do actuall throws and counters, blocks totherwos and kaeshi waza, reersals of throws. Then n to the mat, where we dobasic holds, locks and other waza. Combinations, escapes, reversals and lock and hold flows are taught in the mat as throwing combinations are taught on the feet.

One important aspect of Judo training is rarely mentioned so Id better:Transitional combinations are very important. Since Judo starts standing up and ends uup many times on the mat, we practice very much transition techniques, as throw to throw to holddown.

We practice many combinations of various throws and throwing combinations to various holds and locks so that there is no space between the throw and the folowup hold.

Now, Mike as you said, all arts change, even my Chinese arts.True, but in China , the philosophy is built on Change, the principles however stay the same.

Thus one must learn and perfect, and master to a great extent, the application of fundamental underlying principles, as in Jiujitsu.

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Postby RA Miller » Tue Aug 15, 2000 4:25 am


Just as Asoka says that kata is useless, I also have a prejudice. I believe that sparring is quite possibly the worst possible training for combat.

My reasoning is simple. I have over two hundred completely unarmed uses of force. The ones that went well and quickly looked nothing like sparring, felt nothing like sparring. The ones that went perfectly looked just like kata. The few where I was desperately surprised were nothing at all like sparring. Some of the officers who have been hurt were tournament champions- who forgot it was no contest.

For those reasons, I consider myself a traditionalist who knows something about self-defence.

Other little things-
At least two people have tried to explain that kata doesn't mean what you think it means. Tea ceremony is a kata. There is a proper kata for signing a contract or a treaty. In the old styles, uke does a specific thing and tori does a specific response. Their actions are the same every time. There is no improvisation (except for training, but I am trying to keep this simple for our young friend). The kata are named, performed the same throughout the ryu, and serve the same purpose as the more familiar one man kata: They preserve the history, the techniques and act as an identifier.

Pankration is a modern martial art cobbled together from other arts. It is named after an ancient Greek (has nothing to do with gladiators, BTW- wrong country and century) contest in the original Olympics. No rules. Finger locks were particularly popular.

Be careful with "If someone did X I would do Y" statements. That X may happen so fast that your last conscious act is to spit your teeth into your hands so you don't lose them.
i.e. "one hit to the solar plexus and he would be out like a light ...". I've taken a six foot steel tamping bar to the back of the head with no ill effects- not even a freeze. Don't count on anything.

Lastly, this has been sort of nostalgic for me. When I had ten years of training, I thought I knew it all and had very clear ideas about what was valuable and what wasn't. I will have twenty years soon- and I am amazed and humbled at what I don't know, which makes this forum so valuable.

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Postby MANNAVARAYAN » Tue Aug 15, 2000 9:51 am

R.A Miller

I haven't done Pankration for very long(2yrs.) we learn simply street defense but unfortunately we don't learn the history of our art as you do in traditional arts.I have looked it up before and have again done so after your comment.

You're right about pankration being named after an ancient greek contest in the first olympics but however you are also wrong about it having nothing to do with the gladiators unless I have read the history of my own art wrong.

I found it weird first time I found out it was from times of gladiators,because back then I know they used swords.

Regardless of whether art is ancient or modern it doesn't really matter,either way our art would destroy and traditional art.I am not saying we're the best art but compared to traditional ones we are to others I have no idea.Every art has their limits some more than others I realize unfortunately those who do the traditional arts art the most limited ones.

I am not the vicious type person but I do like learn simply street defense since it is the most practical,however I would be more than willing to prove I could beat just about any traditional artist if not all,but I am not here to compete with anyone.

Last tournament my school went to every one kicked ass in our eyes but unfortunately didn't get anything because we got kicked out of tournament before we had chance and why? Well because we were too good for the others and were winning also because they found us to be too vicious of an art.

Get this we only fight in full contact tournaments yet we all got disqualified for too much head contact and hitting too hard,does that make sense?I think not,if that is the case why call it full contact?

Most students and instructors who compete in these tournaments were traditionalist and they usually do not like it if some one breaks tradition.To them we were bad in their eyes because we don't fight like one of them and also because we don't wear traditional uniforms in fact our uniforms are just shorts or sweat pants with a school t-shirt of our colour level.Anyways everyone as I'm sure you do yourself,knows there is alot of political B.S in these tournaments.

I am at orange level which is 3 level as in karate.My next level in this art will be red.Red belts are expected to beat a black belt in other arts.

This is how tough our school is,if we cannot beat some one of black level in a karate, black belt in tae kwon do or kungfu,we are not able to get our shirt.

Before I get my next level shirt I have to be able to fight black belts of other styles in tournaments and win,which I know I can do especially since after doing traditional arts for so many years I know how they fight and what they lack,but our shirt levels aren't just about winning tournaments it is aboout knowing what we learn in class properly and being able to apply it effectively.We have to know our basic punches and blocks and locks and chokes and then everything else after that which is up to our level.

Ex.of our 1st testing level if anyone is interested to know:

Jabs,cross,uppercuts,parries,combinations all in shadow boxing using proper technique and then with partner.

Basic kicks:front kick,rear push kick,round house shin kick,knees(straight knees,push knees)and some grappling techniques like locks and chokes.

Our test is based on:

Technique for each movement (single,partner and sparring first-stand up then ground)
Foot work

Each one depends on percentage given by instructor or instructors and added up for over all percentage and performance.

For orange sparring would be with both ground and stand up mixed not separately.
Every test has sparring in it unlike traditional arts.


[This message has been edited by MANNAVARAYAN (edited August 15, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by MANNAVARAYAN (edited August 15, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by MANNAVARAYAN (edited August 15, 2000).]
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Postby Panther » Tue Aug 15, 2000 2:44 pm

Aaaaahhhh... Where to begin? Image

First, Jo-chu-gai (sic) is just a training drill... it's not one of the two-person kata of Goju-ryu. There are named two-person kata and as Kusanku-san pointed out, you were that close to getting there as a ni-dan...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Posted by MANNAVARAYAN:

It is too bad that traditional arts don't have anything but straight punches,well at least in goju anyways.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummmm... You reached ni-dan and all you learned was "straight punches"?!?!? Image I don't know whether to laugh or cry! You should go back and try to get a refund.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Posted by MANNAVARAYAN:

If you wait for person to attack and he knocks you out who says you're going to have a chance to fight back to defend yourself, where as if you don't even give the person a chance to attack because you attack first you have higher chance of winning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know where you live, but seems like you haven't quite read up on the legal ramifications of "attacking first" in North America. If you act/react this way, I sincerely hope you have a very good lawyer. Image

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Posted by MANNAVARAYAN:

No traditionalist knows anything about self-defense they just like to think and believe they do when in reality they don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah... right... I don't work in a field where I'm in danger every day, but I can tell you that kara-te and ju-jitsu kata are very effective for self-defense in the real world (tm). And while I've been fortunate enough to walk away from an altercation without injury, I've also got the scars to prove survival of other altercations... Why do we practice with hands by our sides? Do you always walk around with your hands in "fighting position"? We practice that way because that's where our hands usually are when walking or sitting! And most street altercations are not telegraphed in advance... no matter what you see in the chop-socky movies. Life doesn't occur en garde... (At least it shouldn't Image )

After saying that stances are unimportant, you say that you do practice stances... but just the "natural stance". And you practice "footwork" as well... What's in between each "natural stance"? In kara-te, kempo, and ju-jitsu, those "transitional stances" are worked on because moving creates vunerability and by working those various stances the body mechanics are trained towards elimination of that vunerability.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Posted by MANNAVARAYAN:

Regardless of whether art is ancient or modern it doesn't really matter,either way our art would destroy and traditional art.

... I would be more than willing to prove I could beat just about any traditional artist if not all... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First it's an ancient "lost" art... then Miller-san gives more information... now you say it doesn't matter... Obviously, you've found something you believe in. Congradulations on that. However, claiming an ability to beat any traditional martial artist isn't something you should do so lightly... While I'm certain you could easily "punch my ticket", I'd borrow money to bet against you with at least a dozen traditionalists that I know... actually, many more than a dozen. Such challenges and claims aren't the mark of any sempai, sensei, shihan, hanshi, menkyo kaiden, soke, that I know of. (Or would associate with, for that matter!)

It must take you a long time to get to red shirt or whatever if you have to defeat other style's black-belts in open tournaments and you keep getting kicked out of open tournaments. hey, don't get me wrong, as a "traditionalist", I didn't really compete in tournament sparring and when I did, I got disqualified even for a controlled technique... so I understand where you're coming from... it's just that I don't harbor any ill-will over the lose, it was a learning experience for me and helped me understand the difference between traditional training and sport/tournament training. I had done one and it wasn't applicable to the other... additionally, I realized that I really didn't want to do the other. Valuable lesson... But it didn't make me lose respect for tournament/sport kara-te-ka... we just train differently for different reasons, that's all.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Posted by MANNAVARAYAN:

Every test has sparring in it unlike traditional arts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Woah... Image

As I was saying... Perhaps you should go and try to get some of your money back from your Goju-ryu "instructor"! Image

[This message has been edited by Panther (edited August 15, 2000).]
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Postby kusanku » Tue Aug 15, 2000 6:29 pm

Hoooooeeee Doggies Jethro!What kind of Goju training did you take, and twelve years for nidan, too!

Panther, we are once again in total agreement, as on other threads but one. Guess I'll give you that one, cause I like your style!I believe we would get on ust fine.

We appear to like the same things. Image

Rory, as always, agreement. I too find in actual experiences, of which they were intense, short and memorable, including knife disamrs where I was lucky like you would not believe Image,and other type thins including a few multiple attacs, nothing looked like kumite and when it worked it was from kata, every time.Never did I assume a fighting tournament stance and jump around. It always happened to fast nd too close for any of that stuff to happen.

Asoka:Panther is right. You need to go find that Goju teacher and get your money back.

What can I tellyou?

Also, here you say you don't need any fighting system, why then do you wish to study that formal kata art, Aikido?

You gonna find a better art there, do you think?

Y' might like Okinawan Kenpo, we spar too, with armor, mostly.Gives a whole new meaning to full contact.As I bet the guys at Summer Camp with Coach Baluer's HIGH GEAR found out fast.

It's enjoyable. But that is our sports portion. All our self defense is taught by means of kata. It works quite well too.

Nothing to do with tournament fighting.

Ah well, amusement comes my wayso rarely these days Image

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Postby mikemurphy » Tue Aug 15, 2000 7:56 pm


You are absolutely right about the Tony Blaur's gear. What a rush being able to throw "almost" full contact techniques at someone. I got the knuckle to prove it too (cut myself on the visor). BTW, thanks Lenny for donning the suit.

I honestly haven't formed an opinion on the practicality of the suit yet, but as a tool to test your techniques with. I'm all for it. It's a shame they cost so much ($900.00).

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Postby kusanku » Wed Aug 16, 2000 7:09 am

They sure are expensive, those suits, but I think from the perspective of the ones we used to use(modified Kendo Gu) these are more practical and better for training(been to the website-impressive)

Now, if you have these, grappling and striking can be done.

Little taste o' reality never hurt no one. Image If administered in time that is.

What they say about armor in Okinawan Kempo is this: t doesn't stop the power of the technique from coming through, it just protects you from the effect.

Okinawan Kempo is heavy into kyusho , the armor is to prevent accidental kyusho long term damage from kumite.

And to give a taste of reality.

as a Jiujitsu or judo practitioner knows what they can and can not do with another opposing human body, the practitioner f armored combat simulation has some idea of their actual capabilities and weaknesses from fighting the suit.Those in the suit get another perspective of the realty of combat without paying the fukll privce for it, and those hittig the suit will have greater effect in a real fight, they know this.

Thus it is an excellent tool, and maybe too, when I make the stock market my own:-) , I too shall possess a set of these fine implements of training.

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