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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2000 6:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Here's a question that we can all get into a little bit. As we banter about the advantages of this and the disadvantages of that, have we ever wondered what each style has to offer that could make us better jujitsu-ka? Now for the sake of argument, let's keep the grappling systems out of this (sorry all you judo-ka and BJJ-ka). Let's just talk about the more traditional jujitsu systems being practiced in Japan and elsewhere.

As you all know by now, I train Nihon Jujitsu, which is a more modern system developed from the concepts of Tomiki style Aikido and Mifune style Judo (at least those are the influences). Shiyuza Sato sensei, who created the system, has a very respectable background and took the movements of what he considered the 12 old-style jujitsu systems in Japan and incorporated them into this system because he honestely saw them being lost to evolution. With that said, Nihon Jujitsu is very old style in a way with linear movements and proper presentation. There is also an emphasis on roughly 25 of the Kodokan's 65 throws. I could go into more, but I think you get the drift.

What does it have to offer? Of course it offers what other systems offer in the way of manipulating your opponant's energy, how to move with your center of balance, and the concept of sequence (i.e. control, atemi, nage waza, osae or kansetsu waza) in most of the scenarios or kata. I believe it is a well-balanced system.

In the higher kata it also offers techniques using knives, tanbo, and even gun defenses, although I'll leave it up to the individual to say whether or not they are effective.

What does the other stylests out there say? Daito-ryu? Hakkoryu-ryu? Etc.?

mike


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2000 6:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 35
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
Mike sensei,

First, I must say that I am not a student/practitioner of Daito-ryu. That being said, here on the East coast, there are a small number of legitimate members of Daito-ryu organizations (Roy Goldberg, shingen of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Kodokai is the one with which I am most familiar).

From the outsider's perspective, it is a very interesting approach to combative encounters. Rather than seeking to meet or redirect one's opponent, exponents of DR strive to take advantage of his/her autonomic reactions. This can take many forms, but the most often seen is the 'sticky-ness', or creating a situation of dependency. They also have some interesting spinal constrictions that leave (me at least) begging to be thrown, just to allow respiration (have seen people nearly pass-out from this). Also had a chance to train with the first US representative of the Daito-ryu Roppokai recently. They dont really transmit much Jujutsu waza (preferring to use 'aiki'). Fascinating study.

Be well,
Jigme

------------------
Jigme Chobang
aikibudokai@yahoo.com


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2000 12:42 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 821
Location: Ptld OR USA
Obviously, I feel Sosuishi has a lot to offer. Thanks, Mike, for this task to put that into words.

Physically, the techniques are simple, quick and brutal. Very few require any fine motor skill. They exhibit a totality of attack, combining striking, throwing and locking or strangling into a single movement.

The kata closely matches my experience of defensive combat- it deals with surprise attacks from the side and rear. The face to face attacks are for sudden assassination attempts or when the opponent has an overwhelming advantage, like a weapon and initiative.

The expectations- that you cannot fight multiple opponents, but you can finish one at a time quickly enough to have the same effect. That you aren't there to win, but only to destroy as many of the enemy as you can before your inevitable death.

If I could pick two things that really set the advanced practitioners apart, it would be a stillness, an ability to wait without emotion for the situation to fully unfold before acting at all, and then acting ruthlessly; and a weird habit of flinching towards trouble. When truly surprised, we close, take the center.

Thanks for making me think, Mike.

Rory


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2000 11:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
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Location: Ptld OR USA
I'm going to add one more. One of my friends is Wally Jay's representative for the Northwest. I have no rank in the system but I play with Stan whenever I get the chance. A lot of Small Circle principles have wound up in our organizations DT's as a result.

So, IMO, this is what Small Circle Jujitsu has to offer:

It is absolutely the best system I have ever found for getting handcuffs on a resistive threat without hurting him.

Rory


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2000 9:25 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 268
Yoshinkan Aikido has two things to offer the practitioner, in my experience, that are very fine.

One, the techniques are taught in a very jiujitsu like manner, step by sptep, piece by piece, no slush and no slop, in a set form and manner, unlike much Aikido.In this they are similar to Tomiki style.

Two, the principles underlying the techniques are taught, completely devoid of mysticism, in such a manner that you get to see wha the experts are doing, and understand that it takes certain things, which you are taught from the ver beginning, and which are carefully enumerated, for you to make your techniques work.

As for instance, blocking is emphasied with tai sabaki, and taught scientifically, and striking is also taught.Then you are shown exactly how to make an techniques work, such as, in ikkyo, you are shown exactly how far to turn the wrist over(90 degrees and no more) so they can not spin on you, and how to lock out the shoulder, point it at their ear, and push.

You are shown then how to fork your thumb web over the golgi receptors behind the elbow and straighten their arm and take them to the mat, and pin them there so they can not escape.

And if they start to , you are shown exactly how and where to strike with the atemi(carotid artery with tegatana or shuto) that makes sure they do not so suddenly arise.

I like that approach , and appreciate the precise instructions.

Once secret, now pblicly available, the waza and the Gokui(secret principles and they mean body mechanics) of Aikdo are nowhere better taught than in Yoshinkan, and only in Tomiki, as well.With slightly different emphases of course.


Kusanku


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2000 11:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Some interesting points. What about Aikido (other than that already mentioned)or aiki-jujitsu? Anyone out there want to comment?
What about any "old-style" jujitsu? Hmm?

mike


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2000 5:11 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 117
Location: Natick, MA
Hello everyone.
This is my first post on this forum. In exploring what other styles (Jujitsu and alike) have to offer here is something you may be interested in. I am sure you have heard of SAMBO - the Russian martial art taught widely in the military and police forces. For a very long time SAMBO and Judo were the only two legal martial arts in Russia. Karate, Kung-fu, Wu-Shu and others were highly forbidden because of its "violent nature" (the government quote). I studied SAMBO since I was 13, until I left the country. From what I have seen here, it is very similar to Jujitsu. It contains most of the same techniques, throws and takedowns. When we had to go to tournaments they were usually for both Judo and SAMBO, so we would learn certain techniques from Judo as well. In the military, SAMBO is taught predominantly to the Special forces, Airborne Combat Forces ("DESANT") and the Navy Special Forces (sort of like the Navy seals in the US). This SAMBO is very different from the competition one because it emphasizes lethal techniques, defenses against weapons and in general - reality combat.

There is a web-site that you may want to check out if interested: http://combatsambo.jumpsports.com/
I am still very much fascinated with self-defense applications of the grappling arts and think they are very practical in the real life. For us Uechi people I think it is important to explore and learn these techniques if not to use them then to learn how to defend against them. I think that exploring what other styles of MA have to offer will only help us to become better at what we do.

Best regards to everyone,
Vladimir


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2000 8:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Thanks Vladimir for the description of Sambo. I would love to see it in action one of these days. I just don't get out enough anymore. :-(

Anyway,none of the descriptions mentioned the training of kobudo in any fashion. Does anyone incorporate weapons in their jujitsu training? I have trained with Aikido-ka who have had to learn Iaido or bo as well.

Nihon doesn't incorporate anything that is not mentioned in my first post; however, my sensei and his sensei have leaned to use the jo which doesn't affect my training at all.

mike


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