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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2000 9:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 04, 2000 6:01 am
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Location: satellite Bch Fl.
More and more as I work to expand my knowlage of the martial arts world, I have found that a teacher has, over the years, studied several different styles of martial arts and combined or borrowed in order to create a new style. Examples which i have run across are the Daito-mushin-ryu style of iai-justu; a combination of two or three different traditional styles. second is the Mushin-no-to-ryu style of jiu-jutsu; created from tang-soo do and other styles i am not familliar with. Last is a style that i have not heard the name for but it is a combo of ****o-ryu, goju-ryu and shorin-ryu.
Tell me what you think. Do hybris styles have no place in martial arts? Or is it a good idea to combine and modify for the modern times?

---kage---


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There are no styles of bushido, for there is only one true way of the warrior


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2000 11:53 pm 
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Location: Ptld OR USA
Kage-

I'm too tired to be diplomatic right now. Personally, I think if you look at the date and circumstances of the creation of various styles you get great insight into their utility. The older battle-field styles of jujutsu have a vastly different feel and philosophy than the slightly later dueling styles. And a much different feel from the styles that were synthesized after dueling was outlawed and therefor were never tested.

Modern mixes are often based on very false assumptions. The first is that interpersonal violence has changed much over the millenia. It hasn't. The motivations are the same and there are only so many ways a human body can be hurt by another human body. Even the tools are not as different as we want to believe.

The second, deadliest assumption is that years of experience in various martial arts gives one the judgement to discern what works and what doesn't. You can't get that in the dojo, especially studying only untested styles with armchair strategies. But you can sure believe you can. And you can convince others. "Since the leg is six times as powerful as the arm I will base my style on kicking and it will be six times as effective as any other art." For one glaring example of armchair strategy gone terribly wrong.

Kage, the mixed styles are possible, but the person who mixes them must know what they are talking about. I think if you find a good one it will have fewer techniques than its parent styles, not more.

Rory


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2000 3:39 pm 
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Location: Newton, MA
Kage,
Ultimately, I would say...it depends.
Hybrid styles can be fine, if they're actually logical, well thought out, well educated, and based on real experience...great.
Most, I think, tend to result when someone studies multiple styles and then slaps together the techniques, kata, and whatever that they like, with very little rhyme or reason to them...not terribly productive or efficent.

In the end, it's the teacher, not the style that makes the difference.

Jake

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Defeat is worse than death. You have to live with defeat - Seal Team Slogan


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2000 4:00 pm 
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida
I understand that in China, teachers weren't so style conscious. They were more like chefs than cooks. They created systems for individulas, tailoring the moves to the individual rather than force feeding a prepackaged style to all their students.

When the martial arts left China, the styles were treated as sacred rituals. You chose a style and was stuck with the teacher's way of performing it. When a person experimented and found something that worked for him, that differed from his teacher, he was forced to leave the dojo and create a new style.

Today their are thousands of mixed breed styles competing for students. Does mixing a Uechi Sanchin with a Shorin jump kick add something to the new style that wasn't possible in either Uechi or Shorin?

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GEM


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2000 2:38 am 
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Location: Canada (for now)
Kage,

I don’t think it’s possible to pass on martial arts knowledge without changing something about the original style.

No matter how I might try and copy the instructor who taught me, I’m going to do something different. My arm is not the same length as his/hers, my weight, height, etc...
And if/when I should pass this knowledge on, I will end up changing something. (Subconsciously, if nothing else.)

So, even the classic styles are being modified as they mature.

As for the new styles of martial arts, well, new is a relative term, are we talking the last one hundred years, fifty years, twenty years?

I would agree with Jake Steinmann,”... it depends. ... it’s the teacher, not the style.”

------------------
"We forge our bodies in
the fire of our will." Han
from 'Enter the Dragon'


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2000 10:51 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Kage,

I've always thought that these modern systems that someone created were a bunch of hooey, but as Jake and Rory point out, it is really the teacher that counts.

For example, look at the Fred Vallarie studies that were out there in force 15-20 years ago. This was a "style" created by someone who didn't have the faintest idea about martial arts yet was quite a business man. Add whatever you want because it "looks" good. Don't worry that there is no foundation of the movement in the style. There are a million styles out there with the same philosophy. Many of the Taekwondo schools out there are like that because they have looked to tournements and have forgotten what traditional taekwondo really is.

It's not hard to assume that the same has happened to jujitsu styles. Hell, the style that I teach is a modern version. It was created by someone with an unquestionable background and resume for one reason. He was seeing the traditional styles of jujitsu disappear one by one and wanted to preserve some of the older movements and philosophies.

To put it short, it is the teacher that counts ultimately, but one has to be aware of the school and whether its sole reason for existance is to ****** in unsuspecting people for the money, regardless of the instructor's teaching abilities.

mike


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2000 2:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2000 6:01 am
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gmattson:
I understand that in China, teachers weren't so style conscious. They were more like chefs than cooks. They created systems for individulas, tailoring the moves to the individual rather than force feeding a prepackaged style to all their students.

When the martial arts left China, the styles were treated as sacred rituals. You chose a style and was stuck with the teacher's way of performing it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
_____________________

I totally agree with Sensei Mattson. We can see that even today. Practitioners of Chinese styles tend to be fluent in numerous styles (i.e., Tai Chi, Bagua, Chi Gung, and variou Kung Fu styles). This may also be reflective of the less hierarchical structure of Chinese society when compared to Japanese society. In Japan, the philosophy was more likely: "This is my Sensei. This is the style I practice. And that is that!"

Rich


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2000 9:27 pm 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Rich,

What's wrong with that???

Sensei

PS Happy New Year!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2000 10:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2000 6:01 am
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mikemurphy:
Rich,

What's wrong with that???

Sensei

PS Happy New Year!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sensei:

There is nothing wrong with it. It just is.

Thanks for the New Year's greeting too.

Rich


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