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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2000 2:16 pm 
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Many styles of jujutsu contain judo throws (for lack of a better term). These include various hip throws (Ogoshi, Ukigoshi), shoulder throws (Seionage), and sweeps (Osoto Gari, Kouchi Gari, Ouchi Gari).

Do you think these are effective techniques that, if applied "perfectly", would incapacitate an opponent? Or, would we be required to move on to other techniques (joint locks, pins, strikes, etc.)?

My opinion is that the techniques themselves are not totally devastating and you would need to move on. I have heard/read stories about these techniques being applied "on the street" and the opponent just getting up and attacking again.

Any thoughts?

Rich


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2000 6:24 pm 
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"Do you think these are effective techniques that, if applied "perfectly", would incapacitate an opponent?"

ANY technique "perfectly" exectuted would incapacitate the opponent (IMNSHO).

Unfortunately, perfection is something that doesn't happen much on the street...or anywhere else.

I don't think there is anything out there that is 100% reliably going to incapacitate anyone (discounting techology, like thermo-nuclear weapons Image).

In the street, you do what you must to survive. If that means you dump the guy on his head...great. If he gets up, or keeps fighting...hurt him more.

"The fight is over when one opponent has lost the will to continue fighting" - T. Blauer

Food for thought
Jake

------------------
Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here obident to their laws we lie
- Inscription at the site of Thermopylae

www.tonyblauer.com/Products/HighGear/HighGear.html


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2000 10:22 pm 
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Judo throws can be effective, even when you don't want them to be. I use to be a bouncer a long long time ago. I can remember this little skirmish I got into with 3 guys. One grabbed me in a bear hug from behind. I peeled his finger off and took his left arm up into a modified finger,elbow/shoulder lock. I then threw him backward onto the ground with a modified Osotgeri. He had not drank anything yet, but he was rendered completely unconscious. His eyes rolled up into his head so we could only see the whites of his eyes. I had tried to be very gentle actually, but the impact put him lights out. We were supposed to be sort of careful with customers, to avoid law suits - but he had already sucker punched me in the ribs, and one of his partners tha kicked me a few times in the thigh - so my adrenalin was pumping. I probably threw him harder then I remember, but I do know I tried not to really dump him.

But I prefer Aikijujutsu type of throws. I find many Judo throws strategically weaker by nature. Many of the Judo throws involve turning your back to your opponant, and the first lesson I learned in life was never ever turn your back to your opponant. Aikijutsu throws do not involve putting your back to the opponant the way many hip throws and the like from Judo require. Also one way to nullify Judo throws is to let go. Many Judo throws do not work well without the typical Judo grip. Also if someone is alert and a person begins to throw you with a basic hip throw, if you just reach around and grab their face or throat you can just pull them backwards on their ass or into a grappling position. And it is true that most Judo throws do not harm an opponant until he strikes the ground (the ground is the weapon). If he lands wrong, or on a pointed object, or the corner of a table, or the back of a chair, or down a stair case etc - then he can be hurt. Aiki throws are performed against a joint, and so the opponant is usually injured before he hits the ground - from his shoulder, elbow, wrist or neck being torqued out. My favorite throw - given the right situation - is to grab the opponants crotch either from the front or the back with one arm, and then drive the other forearm into the throat or back of his neck while lifting the crotch. If you have some strength the opponants head can really be planted into the ground. But this is actually a Karate throw, not Jujitsu or Judo. This is a dangerous technique. Do not use lightly.

Note : When I refer to "Judo" in this case I am refering to Olympic Kodokan Judo. The term Judo is recorded to have been used (although not commonly) 250 years before Jigoro Kano (the founder of Kodokan Judo) was even born. There are other systems (less well known) then Kodokan Judo that have more of an Aiki influence, and many more striking techniques etc.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2000 5:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2000 6:01 am
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Location: Cambridge, MA USA
Here is a nice wishy-washy response...

It depends:

If we take a koshi nage (for example), and apply it so that Uke lands on his hip, that is quite different than chucking him over onto his head.

Also, the original syllabus for the Kodokan included atemi, kansetsu-waza and a whole bunch of other stuff that isn't legal in randori or shiai now. Kano's intent seems clear though, that when practiced for personal defense this stuff should be included.

Be well,
Jigme

------------------
Jigme Chobang
aikibudokai@yahoo.com


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2000 8:50 am 
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Rich,

Properly executed, judo throws are devestating. The same technique can cause no damage, knock the wind out, snap the coccyx, break the neck or shatter all bones from acromial-clavicular joint to the sternum. If you are currently studying judo and your instructor is an old-timer he should be able to explain it to you.

I hear the argument about not turning the back frequently. It makes me smile. It is an assumption from the dueling area. The battlefield arts assume that in chaos you will usually be attacked from behind. Closing the distance and using the "judo grip" (kumi kata) are actually the hardest parts of the sport form- and are all too often handed to you on a silver platter when you are attacked.

Rory
(And in case Bruise wants the qualifications: Mokuroku in Sosui****su-ryu jujutsu; college varsities in judo and fencing; corrections sergeant; almost ten years corrections; two as a casino bouncer; CERT team member; CERT DT instructor)

[This message has been edited by RA Miller (edited October 06, 2000).]


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2000 2:40 am 
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LOL. I see that my poorly penned question to Tony Blauer has made the rounds. But I do thank you for your background.

Park Bok Nam use to say "A hungry child does not care who his grandparents are" whenever I queried about background. he is right, but it still interests me what a person has been through to lead them to the point they are in life (and martial arts)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:53 am 
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Rich,
As a recent newbie to Judo and grappling arts I found the first few times I was thrown in Ogoshi really beat the heck out of me. Now that I breakfall somewhat I'm bouncing back up a little quicker. But take away the mat, throw with a little more intent, have someone land on their arm or shoulder and their staying down. As a karate guy, a throw would be about the last thing I would probably do. I do however respect its use in the right hands.
f.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:07 pm 
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Location: Natick, MA
I agree with previous posts. My SAMBO coach used to say that "a throw doesn't hurt, the ground does…"
When we practice most throws in the dojo we work with the partner assisting him or her to fall by pulling them up just a little before they hit the ground. Besides we all learn how to break fall first. If I get a chance to execute a throw on the street (notice an IF), I would send the person flying as hard as I can, let him fall hard.
Personally, I would not be relying on or waiting for an opportunity to perform a throw, unless someone grabs me. Once they do, that' my Judo grip right there. I also won't feel too comfortable turning my back on an attacker. But I think that given the right opportunity/situation a Judo throw can be very effective.

Regards,
Vladimir


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