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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2000 12:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Let's get a little technical here....

Knowing, as we all do, that there are only really three ways to manipulate a wrist (kotegaishi, kotegatame, and kotehineri), and each one as effective as the others in their own way, I find that kotegaishi, as practiced in my style, is the most devistating. I can't tell you why. Perhaps it is the muscle or bone structure of the wrist, or even something deeper. Maybe it's because their seems to be more "give" to your opponant at first, but then nothing. Who knows?

With that said, would you use it on the outside if the opportunity presented itself, or would you resort to the karate/empty hand training and simply start kicking and punching?

I would love to think that I could and would plant this wonderful wrist break, but I may never know.

mike


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2000 1:00 pm 
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Posts: 317
Mike,
I could, and have, used this very effective move in situations in which control was the issue, not destruction. I see it as midway along the force continuum. Paul


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2000 9:23 pm 
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Mike-san,

Unfortunately, my exposure to ju-jitsu type moves has been very limited - I have been lucky enough to participate in a few seminars here and there by some gifted practitioners - but - as discussed somewhere earlier - if you don't have someone to process and practice new techniques with - they are quickly lost.

Such is the way with the few wrist locking moves I have learned.

Intuitively, and through some memory and some experimentation - I can come up with a few painful moves on a wrist - but I neither know which one I am doing (you mention three types of these wrist techniques) nor how to effectively describe or regularly teach them. Basically I work "against the way the wrist works" if that makes any sense. That seems to cause the most pain and works well toward the control vs. damage concept Paul-san mentions.

Because of this control vs. damage concept - I seriously want to explore this technique further as there are many applications for a controlling technique when serious damage is not the desired result. Say an unruly or out of control teenager in a school situation for one.

A couple questions:

1) I realize there is nothing like hands on instruction - in the absence of that opportunity... Can you discuss describe these techniques at all in this forum type venue? If so, would you please?

2) How practical are these kinds of techniques under serious stress? I find working them in a dojo environment fairly straighforward with lots of practice to make them smooth - but under stress would it still work as easily?

3) How much effectiveness is lost in a "solid" opponent? Obviously these things work easily on some slim boned or slender wristed opponents - I've had trouble getting the proper "angle" if you will on a "beefy" forearm.

Anything else you care to add I'd like to learn more. Thank you.

Lori


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2000 12:47 am 
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Location: Boston, MA
Mike,

I agree with Paul that the use of kotegaishi is dependent on the context of the environment and also of the intent and intensity of the attacker.

It's nice to have in the bag of tricks when you're in situation that requires "controlling" rather than striking/knocking down, such as a school, hospital, community center. Also, when the "opponent" is someone you really do not want to seriously hurt for whatever reason.

Frankly, though, against a determined opponent, I am not sure that a kotegaeshi without a "softening" prelude, i.e. atemi, can be counted on to take an opponent down. Folks with strong arms and wrists can fight off the grasp before the technique is affected. People with pliable wrist can actually take alot of pressure before damage is done (or be made to flip over to relieve the pressure.) In that interim, they can strike you back. Someone who knows how can also foil the kotegaeshi. Rather than resisting the pressure, stay loose and move into the proponent. This takes pressure off the wrist and gives you time to close and counterstrike and/or grab onto the person and pull him/her down with you. I've tried this in a fast randori with someone I trusted to not get mad at me because I broke from the role of "uke" to "nage" (or "tori"). I didn't tell him beforehand because that would nullify the idea of the test. But, essentially, when he got hold of my wrist on a tsuki attack and went for the kotegaeshi, I flowed in to him, grabbed him by the back of the neck and pulled him with me into the breakfall. The grab could easily been replaced with a strike to his temple or something else. Of course, if I hadn't moved fast enough, my wrist could have been strained or broken. But that would have been my fault and not his. Image

Anyway, I believe in atemi, atemi, atemi and maybe a kotegaeshi to follow with a strong/determined opponent. I would apply the same approach to other types of wrist manipulations like nikkyo and sankyo.

Mike, do you have tapes of your bunkai interpretations with jujutsu responses? That could help Lori and others better visualize/remember the techniques.

david



[This message has been edited by david (edited September 16, 2000).]


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2000 12:53 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 04, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 179
Location: Derry, NH, USA
Hi Lori,

If I may jump in here with some suggestions to your questions.

2) How practical are these kinds of techniques under serious stress? I find working them in a dojo environment fairly straighforward with lots of practice to make them smooth - but under stress would it still work as easily?

In my opinion, with proper experience, wrist techniques can be quite effective. But (and this is a BIG BUT!) most of the time they should be set up with an extremely effective shocking strike or kick. Essentially blast them to distract them, even to the point of dropping them to their knees, allows you much more time to apply the lock.

3) How much effectiveness is lost in a "solid" opponent? Obviously these things work easily on some slim boned or slender wristed opponents - I've had trouble getting the proper "angle" if you will on a "beefy" forearm.

Well the best way to address this is work with solid partners as much as possible. There are a number of varying responses individuals can give. Being a non-responder is one of the categories, and they aren't always solid individuals.

Keep in mind if you keep your bodies center line angled towads the lock at all times you will dramatically increase your power. Just having you center point a few degerees away from the lock leaves your much weaker. There is a reason one strives for correct technique.

Also, when you face a non-responder who you can do nothing to, this is time for answer number 2 (and or 3 and 4 and so on).

Just a few quick observations.


------------------
Victor Smith


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2000 1:24 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 821
Location: Ptld OR USA
Quote:
"Knowing, as we all do, that there are only really three ways to manipulate a wrist ..."

Quote:
"Basically I work "against the way the wrist works" if that makes any sense."

Hmmm. Wrists are gliding joints and move pretty freely in any direction. Generally, you can lock a wrist with a combination of bending to ninety degrees and rotating. The bend can be in any direction and the rotation can be clockwise or counter clockwise. It is not always necessary to twist (ikaju) but those are the weakest options. Mike, this gives me eight basic wristlocks. We're probably just categorizing differently.

Lori- the wrist locks work great, sometimes. They require enough fine motor control that rookies have a hard time making them work. To my experience, they work much better on martial artists than they do on other people. (If you wrist lock a fellow student they will 'go with it' and you can anticipate and use this...whereas someone else will go "Ow!" and snatch the hand to the center of their chest- which breaks most wrist locks.

We usually can't use atemi in my field. Even a distracting slap is questionable. With the big guys the trick is to adapt. Someone who muscles out of a kote gaeshi sets up an armbar, and vise-versa. The trick is to learn to ride their intent by touch.

Rory


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2000 2:29 am 
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Thanks for the very informative responses guys! I believe I learned more just reading this than I have trying to remember one of 10 or so techniques shown in a seminar! Especially the insights on true to life scenarios. Interesting point about working these techniques on martial artists vs. non martial artists - the reality of the response changes the entire outook on training.

Also well taken are the comments about the atemi - thank you.

In the absence of a nearby teacher at least I'm picking up on some great background material for the next opportunity I get for some hands on training.


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2000 1:07 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Lori,

<<1) I realize there is nothing like hands on instruction - in the absence of that opportunity... Can you discuss describe these techniques at all in this forum type venue? If so, would you please?>>

Kotegaishi is an outer wrist twist. If you can picture your arm outstretched with the palm up with someone pushing your pinky side of the hand toward the lower end of your thumb and you have the lock. I'm sure you've done it before as it is pretty common. I believe it is sankyu in Aikido (???). It's a great move for a break as well as control.


<<2) How practical are these kinds of techniques under serious stress? I find working them in a dojo environment fairly straighforward with lots of practice to make them smooth - but under stress would it still work as easily?>>

I believe this technique would work very well (used it on some unruly students at the high school), but I have to agree with David and say that Atemi (distraction) is the way to go first.

<<3) How much effectiveness is lost in a "solid" opponent? Obviously these things work easily on some slim boned or slender wristed opponents - I've had trouble getting the proper "angle" if you will on a "beefy" forearm.>>

It's all in the atemi. Remember, someone can build up muscle all day long, but you can't do anything about bone. I have some extremely big body builders in my class and I can get them with this at will.

I hope that helps,

mike


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2000 1:09 am 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Rory,


<<We're probably just categorizing differently.>>

I'm sure that's what we are doing. :-)

mike


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:17 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Mike,

The aikido kotegaeshi is the same as yours. In aikido, sankyo (or Sankaijo) manipulates the wrist in the other direction. I am sure you have this technique though, perhaps, by another name. Think of someone holding the arms out with 90 degree bend in the elbows, like surrendering or making a goal post. Now, keep the 90 degree but drop the hand down point towards the floor. One of the hands is grabbed by the blade area, put into 90 degrees or more to the arm (the palm is facing parallel to the floor) and then twisted into the opponent's center by the ribcage area. This elevates the opponent onto his toes and controls him. After elevating the opponent, you can also whipped the wrist down in an arcing motion towards the floor/ground to throw him. Done fast, you will likely tear the ligaments/tendons in that hand/wrist. I think this technique is taken mostly against grabs then strikes.

david


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:43 am 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
David,

I always get the Aikido wrist locks messed up with the Japanese names that we use. We use as stated above Kotegaishi, kotegatame, and kotehineri (which is the one I think you described in your post). The Aikido names are simply numbered Ikkyu, nikyu, and sankyu (Probably the least confusing method) :-)

mike


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2000 9:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 35
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
Howdy all,

Mike-sensei and David-san are talking about the same waza: Kote Hineri (forearm twist) and Sankyo (third principle) Image!

Be well,
Jigme

------------------
Jigme Chobang
aikibudokai@yahoo.com


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2000 9:34 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Thanks Jigme,

We must be speaking different dialects of Americanized Japanese. Image

Mike, Video your techniques, get them to Scott or Tony to put in the archives. This will help provide a common base to have discussions such as these. I think it be a plus for this site. If you want, I can get hold of a camcorder.

david


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2000 10:52 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
David,

That's a great idea, but how do we get them to Scott and/or Tony. I don't even know if I know them. Do I? (sorry Scott or Tony if we have met and I just can't put the face with the name).

mike


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 Post subject: kotegaishi
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2000 11:43 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Boston, MA
Scott and Tony are the "technical" gurus in these forums.

You want me to borrow a camcorder? I have access to two.

david


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