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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2000 10:15 pm 
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A simple thread. Im looking for an explanation as to the differences and similarities of aikido and aikijutsu. Origins, techniques, that kinda stuff.

------------------
There are no styles of bushido, for there is only one true way of the warrior


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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2000 10:32 pm 
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I am goping to give you an answer but please don't take it as definative. Most Aiki systems currently practiced link in some way to Ueshiba - but his is not the only system of Aikido, just one of the most popular. The system I practice is an Aiki system that links to the Yokota family of Japan - totally unrelated to the Ueshiba system, and not very well known.

Aikido is more of a spiritual practice. Ueshiba developed it more after falling in with a religious sect in Japan, after seeing the horrors of WWII. Bujutsu was also banned for a while after WWI, that may also contribute to the rise of Budo in post war Japan. Bujutsu being more the fighting arts of the Samurai, and Budo being more of a spiritual path. But this is a generalization.

Aikido has little if any atemi (striking techniques) , whereas Aikijutsu has ALOT of atemi including some kicks. Aikido alters the throws so there is little injury to the joints. For example in Kote Gaeshi the wrist is bent straight back, but in Aikijustu the wrist is also torqued. In Aikijutsu the opponant should be injured before he hits the ground. Aikijutsu breakfalls are more like Judo falls - they are hard falls and Uke usually is airborne. Aikido frequently does a type of roll - soft falls. SO an Aikido technique might involve "blending" with the opponants movement in a non direct manner, offbalancing him and using his momentum against him so he is off balance and a gentlre throw can then be delivered with little effort. In Aikijutsu you might tap the person shin to unbalance him, plant a solid punch right in the mouth (Kuzushi), grab his right wrist with your left hand and wrap your right arm around his right elbow while simultaneously driving your elbow into his throat and reaping his right leg - thereby possibly snapping his elbow as you throw him and injuring his throat.


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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2000 1:44 am 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Kage,

Thinking they were both the same too,I had to run over to the ole' library and look something up to make sure. This is what I found.

According to the book, "Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts" by Donn Draeger and Robert Smith, it says:
"In 1925 Uyeshiba organized what can
referred to as his style of aiki-
jujutsu, largely for his own personal
spiritual and physical development.
Ueshiba did not create aiki-jujutsu.
The combat form existed centuries
before his birth. He did, however,
use it as a starting point from which
to elaborate on his own system..."

Hope that helps a little bit.

mike


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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2000 9:49 am 
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Location: Boston, MA
Kage,

BL pretty much identified the difference. Ueshiba studied Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu under Sokaku Takeda. Takeda in many stories was presented as very talented but mean, paranoid sort... Reputedly hurt alot of people. Also, killed a dog that pestered him with a cane sword that he always kept with him. Stories...

Ueshiba's religious inclination led to a gradual split from Takeda though he never refuted the relationship and remained deferential to Takeda, supporting him financially, until the latter died.

Early in his teaching, Ueshiba was still doing pretty much aikijujutsu. His book from the 30's, Budo, showed alot of atemi and devastating joint breaking throws. His art was still called aikijujutsu. As time went on, he deemphasized the more "hard core" techniques. More circular/blending types of techniques were introduced in keeping with his spiritual inclination and the notion of "harmony with nature." The art became aikido. This is what is largely still taught by the mainstream branch of aikido from Hombu Dojo.

However, some of his prewar students who started dojo's maintained pretty much a aikijujutsu feel, using more atemi, direct entering-"irimi" as opposed to the ciruclar entries - "en irimi" we see in the mainstream branch of aikido. The prewar students who created their own branch include Tomiki of Tomiki Aikido, Shioda of Yoshinkan Aikido, Saito sensei of Iwama style aikido. There was also Shirata sensei who never differentiated his aikido. Of these, only Saito is alive and still teaching though in his late 70's or early 80's and sometimes faced with health issues.
Saito is the youngest of the lot, starting a little before the war and serving Ueshiba at the Iwama farm/dojo where he retreated during WWII.

Takeda also had his lineage continued and branched out by a senior student, Hisa Takuma, and by his now deceased son, Takeda Tokimune. I get fuzzy here but one branch is called Ropokai Aikijujutsu and the name of the other branch eludes me.

There is also a style, Hakkori ryu Aikijujutsu, that doesn't relate back to the Takeda lineage. The US rep is sensei/shihan Columbo out in (?) colorado. Columbo has several books out and was discussed/presented in Forrest Morgan's book, Living the Martial Way.

I trained once with an aikijutsu guy. He purposed did throws that did not allow me to take clean falls. He did and continued some chokes that borderline put me out despite my "tapping." Whether he was trying to impress me or that's how they practice, I don't know. I do know enough to see how their moves were qualitatively different.

david


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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2000 6:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 35
Location: Cambridge, MA USA
Gonna be a bit of a jerk and argue some of this:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruise Lee
[Snip]
Aikido has little if any atemi (striking techniques) , whereas Aikijutsu has ALOT of atemi including some kicks. Aikido alters the throws so there is little injury to the joints. For example in Kote Gaeshi the wrist is bent straight back, but in Aikijustu the wrist is also torqued.[Snip]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depending on the source, Ueshiba-sensei is reputed to have said that Atemi is 80 to 99% of Aikido. Since his art changed drastically between 1916 (when he met Takeda Sokaku) and his death in 1969, there are [many] variations and personal interpretations of what Aikido is. One very notable difference is in the use of Nage-waza. Aikido tends to project; Aikijujutsu keeps one's opponent very close.

There are also some schools of Aikido which do torque the wrist in Kote Gaeshi (as well as some variations in Daito-ryu which don't), and joint injuries are more likely in the theoretically safer versions (since folks have to work harder to apply them, especially under stressful conditions).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by david:

[snip]
However, some of his prewar students who started dojo's maintained pretty much a aikijujutsu feel, using more atemi, direct entering-"irimi" as opposed to the ciruclar entries - "en irimi" we see in the mainstream branch of aikido. The prewar students who created their own branch include Tomiki of Tomiki Aikido, Shioda of Yoshinkan Aikido, Saito sensei of Iwama style aikido. There was also Shirata sensei who never differentiated his aikido. Of these, only Saito is alive and still teaching though in his late 70's or early 80's and sometimes faced with health issues.
Saito is the youngest of the lot, starting a little before the war and serving Ueshiba at the Iwama farm/dojo where he retreated during WWII.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to Saito sensei, he didn't begin Aikido until the war was already on. Also, most of the instructors that went through the Hombu had very little contact with Ueshiba (since he was already living up in Iwama full-time by this point). Much of what we see as Aikido today is the result of the senior instructors of the Hombu, most notably, Ozawa sensei who was known for his very large circles. There were many lesser known Aikikai shihan who had better technique (IMO), but Ozawa was the chief instructor.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Takeda also had his lineage continued and branched out by a senior student, Hisa Takuma, and by his now deceased son, Takeda Tokimune. I get fuzzy here but one branch is called Ropokai Aikijujutsu and the name of the other branch eludes me.

As far as I know, the main branch is being continued by Kondo Katsuyuki (sp?). The legitimate offshoots (of people who attained menkyo kaiden under Sokaku Takeda) are the Takumakai (Takuma Hisa), Kodokai (Kodo Horikawa) and Hombu (which was led by Takeda Tokimune until his death in 1991; since there has been a lot of political struggling, but Kondo sensei is acting as Soke-dairi until a member of the Takeda family is trained to assume the headmaster status again). The Roppokai was founded by Okamoto Seigo, but as an offshoot of Kodokai. Roppokai tends to specialize in the higher-level teachings of Daito-ryu (the Aiki-no-jutsu).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
There is also a style, Hakkori ryu Aikijujutsu, that doesn't relate back to the Takeda lineage. The US rep is sensei/shihan Columbo out in (?) colorado. Columbo has several books out and was discussed/presented in Forrest Morgan's book, Living the Martial Way.

Actually, the founder of Hakkoryu was a student of Takeda Sokaku. He attained the rank of Kyoju Dairi, then split off. He was also a contemporary of noted Shiatsu exponent Namikoshi (forget his first name), but formulated Koho Igaku (imperial method) of Shiatsu to be taught along with the Hakko-ryu.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I trained once with an aikijutsu guy. He purposed did throws that did not allow me to take clean falls. He did and continued some chokes that borderline put me out despite my "tapping." Whether he was trying to impress me or that's how they practice, I don't know. I do know enough to see how their moves were qualitatively different.

Was this instructor out in central Massachussets? If so, those guys like to train pretty hard, so it wasn't just you (they knock each other around like that regularly).

One more note, there are a lot of people claiming to do "aikijutsu" these days (after the BJJ craze ended, Aiki arts underwent something of a mini-boom).

For many, poorly executed Aikido with lots of Shotokan-style punching is all that Aikijujutsu is. This is a somewhat mistaken idea though. Daito-ryu (arguably the only art that can used the term until recently) is very subtle. The Jujutsu waza are similar to many others (notably Kito-ryu, but my exposure to both is limited), the Aikijujutsu also has some similar waza with other systems. The Aiki is rather unique (okay, nothing new under the sun, but still).

Be well,
Jigme

------------------
Jigme Chobang
aikibudokai@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by kenkyusha (edited October 06, 2000).]


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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2000 12:01 am 
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Posts: 2071
Location: Boston, MA
Hi Jigme,

Thanks for the corrections and clarifications.

Kage, for more info, check out Stanley Pranin's Aikido Journal. In recent years, AJ has been covering aikido and aikijujutsu.

If you want more, look into getting:

-Budo by Morihei Ueshiba
-Aikido Masters: Prewar Students of Ueshiba, compiled by Stanley Pranin
-Samurai Aikijujutsu by Toshishiro Obata
-Yoshinkan Aikido by Gozo Shioda
-(?)Total Aikido by Goz0 Shioda (or his son)
-Volumes 1-5, Traditional Aikido, by Saito sensei. There is also a new set, Takemasu Aikido volume 1-3, done in collaboration with Pranin's AJ.
-Hakkori Ryu jujutsu by (?) Palumbo.

david


[This message has been edited by david (edited October 07, 2000).]


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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2000 11:14 am 
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Posts: 2071
Location: Boston, MA
Made some corrections to the above, after getting home and checking some of the titles. Should never posted those at work. :O

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>For many, poorly executed Aikido with lots of Shotokan-style punching is all that Aikijujutsu is. This is a somewhat mistaken idea though. Daito-ryu (arguably the only art that can used the term until recently) is very subtle. The Jujutsu waza are similar to many others (notably Kito-ryu, but my exposure to both is limited), the Aikijujutsu also has some similar waza with other systems. The Aiki is rather unique (okay, nothing new under the sun, but still).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jigme, that is a very good point and caution. It is different and more "subtle." Not just a matter of atemi. As I said above, I can feel a qualitative difference in the technique but I can't explain it. One thing they don't do is circular entry. Their irimi is always direct to the center (as told to me by my "partner" as to why he wasn't doing the technique that we were working on in the aikido dojo. BTW, this guy trains in Framingham/Worcester.)

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited October 07, 2000).]


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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2000 5:21 am 
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I have an old article written by Bernie Lau who I consider to be an expert in Aiki. I have never met him, only talked to him on the phone, but would like to get to train with him some day. He recieved his actual Aikido shodan from Ueshiba. He also later left Aikido for Aikijutsu. He is a former Seattle Washington law enforcement officer who used Aiki on the job. I will hit some high points from the article:

-----------------------------------------
AIKIJUTSU VS. AIKIDO, THE TRANSITION FROM DEADLY COMBAT TO GENTLE SELF DEFENSE By Gail Nelson, Black Belt Magazine Feb 1986.


(introduction skipped)
A black belt and years of martial arts training do no gaurantee survival on the street..... Bernie Lau, a retired Seattle police detective and Aikijutsu instructor founded the Washington Budokan after his 20 years of Aikido training failed to support him in a life threatening situation. (Police incident mentioned in which Aikido failed)

The main purpose of Aikido is the development of a healthy mind and body. In 1912 at the age of 29, Morehei Uyeshiba met Sokaku Takeda. For the privelege of learning from Takeda, Uyeshiba had to pay between $150 and $300 per technique, plus chop wood and carry water for his instructor. Uyeshiba spent most of his inheritence during this period of training. In 1922 Uyeshiba was authorized to become an instructor in Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. The transformation from Aikijutsu to Aikido was a slow one taking several decades. During that time the art went by many names : daito ryu, tenshin ryu aikijutsu, Uyeshiba ryu, takemuso aiki budo, aiki budo and finally aikido.

But BU (the military dimension) was dropped after WWII, probably due to allied occupation and a ban on martial arts. The next big change was Uyeshibas decision to "go public". The techniques that could be practiced by the public (young and old, men and women) were quite different from those practiced by military students. Painful and dangerous techniques were eliminated, as were stikes and kicks. "Aikido is not meant to defeat the enemy " Uyeshiba said "but to make no enemy".

Unlike aikido, aikijutsu is a warroir combat method used during Japan's many civil wars designed to cripple or kill and attacker.

"Its not a matter of which is better, aikijutsu or aikido" Lau says "The both have their merits. It is more a question of which system will better serve the needs of the individual :self protection or self perfection. The theory of no enemy is fine, but try explaining that to the lumberjack who's trying to relocate your nose"
-------------------------------------------

The following graph is provided in the article:
-------------------------------------------
AIKIJUTSU:
Founded around A.D. 850
Techniques designed to cripple or kill
During practice attacks are made with power and focus
Many dangerous techniques
Applied pain is extreme
Strikes and kicks are used
Designed for protection and combat
Suitable for street combat

AIKIDO :
Founded in 1938
Techniques are not designed to injure an attacker
Attacks tend to be fluid and soft
Dangerous techniques eliminated
Pain applied with restraint
Strikes and kicks eliminated
Not designed for combat but rather self protection and world perfection
Not suitable for street combat.
----------------------------------------

In the system of Aikijutsu that I learned (Dai Yoshin Ryu), the attacks we defended against were more often a punch then a sword hand (tegatana). I notice Uyeshiba style Aikido people practice more defending against sword hand strikes that are delivered at about 40% full speed. Many in our system (taught by Dr. Sacharnoski of Juko Kai) do this "iron body" training and take full contact kicks and punches to the throat, testes and all parts of the body. So often many in the Dai Yoshin ryu system really deliver full out focused punches so if you do not defend properly you will get kicked full force in the jimmy. Also when defending one will often counter with full force to Uke's attack. I remember once as Uke, attacking my partner with a Jo staff and him hitting me (counter attack) in the throat/chin so hard it lifted me off both feet and backwards before he threw me. It really surpised me.


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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:07 pm 
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Location: Natick, MA
On the subject of Aikido/Aikijutsu, does anyone know any of these instructors:
Jigme Chobang in Allston at Aiki
Budokai, Dick Stroud, 5th dan of MIT Aikido, William Gleason, 6th dan of Shobu Aikido.

A friend asked me - he is considering Aikido. Any information is appreciated. Thanks.

Vladimir.


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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:15 pm 
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Hi Vladmir,

Jigme is on these forums. So, he can speak for himself.

Regarding the last two, email me at dysmoy@aol.com or call me. (I think you have my number.)

david


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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 8:17 pm 
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Umm...Vladimir? Look up...
Image

Jigme actually posts on this site. In fact, he posted in this thread Image

A friend of mine trains with him (fairly regularly, I think) and has really enjoys it.

heard of Stroud and Gleason in passing when I was in Aikido. As I recall, heard good things about them..but nothing memorable either...

Jake

------------------
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that here obident to their laws we lie
- Inscription at the site of Thermopylae

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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:08 pm 
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Jigme has taught a seminar at the Hut and will be coming back soon. He is a patient and talented teacher and from what I've seen, a superb martial artist.

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GEM


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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:39 pm 
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Thanks everyone for the info. And apologies to Jigme, I only saw his posting name and didn't realize it was him until you told me. Will pay more attention in the future. Thanks again,

Vladimir


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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:53 pm 
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Wow,

First, thank you all for the kind words!

Vladimir-
Gleason sensei trained with Yamaguchi sensei (a very talented individual indeed) in Japan for a number of years (and Sekiya sensei, so he also does Kashima Shinryu sword). There are a couple of Aikido clubs at MIT, but the one run by Stroub (sp) sensei, is directly under Kanai sensei. Both of these instructors have 25+ years of experience, and both are (by account, since I don't know them personally) skilled practitioners and exponents. Hope that helps some.

Be well,
Jigme

------------------
Jigme Chobang
aikibudokai@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by kenkyusha (edited October 11, 2000).]


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 Post subject: aikido or akijutsu
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2000 7:16 pm 
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I recently read an excellent book about Aikido entitled "Angry White Pyjamas" by Robert Twigger. The author describes his experiences training Yoshinkan Aikido in the Tokyo Riot Police training course.

Rich


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