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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2000 11:11 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
There is thread going on in another forum that deals with grappling and peoole. Furthermore, at a recent test, a lot of discussion was had on grappling.

With that said, is there a workable definition for grappling that we can use as a standard? From there we can go on to find out what we know as true.

mike


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2000 3:44 am 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
I should have added this with the first post but 6:00 us way too early.

Anyway, there has been much discussion about adding grappling to the Uechi curriculum lately. I personally do not find that a bad idea seeing the reality of the situation in the street is really not that condusive to a stand-up system as Uechi. You must look to making yourself better in all the places you may end up. The bad news however, is that many people do not know what grappling is. They confuse grappling with grabbing at the end of a block. In other words, they are mistaking controling and grappling.

With that in mind, who thinks that Uechi should move into the grappling arena???

Please answer the first question as well.

mike


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2000 11:29 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
My personal feeling is to take Uechi to the point of including controlling techniques, throws and sweeps. These are inherent possibilities from some of the kata positions.

I think grappling/groundwork is a valuable area of study but a whole arena unto itself. I've it heard that it takes 8-10 years to get a bb in a legitimate BJJ school. What's it take to get a bb in Uechi now? (I honestly don't know.) I strongly believe the ground work would be diluted or we lose students who just won't cut the wait and the work.

My take,

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited October 21, 2000).]


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2000 1:27 pm 
Mike,

I would like to take a crack at defining "grappling":

A technique which creates distortion in an opponents physical structure that can be taken advantage of.

Tony


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2000 3:07 pm 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Tony-san,

Just to play devil's advocate on your definition...

Then spitting in someone's face would constitute grappling? I would certainly create a distortion in their physical structure that I could take advantage of???

mike


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2000 3:26 pm 
Mike,

I just thought i'd get the ball rolling and answer your question. You could probably add something to it like "a technique which exploits the limitations of the body's joints" or something to that effect.

Tony


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2000 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 08, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 635
Location: Johnston, RI
I know I have a simplistic view of many things in the martial arts. By this I mean I don't care to debate things for hours that are not very complicated. Mike, I can see your question to define grappling has the possibility of becoming a 100 post debate. Can we keep it simple so we can move on? I am going out of my way to say this because I feel Uechi should have grappling. My kids Uechi program has grappling requirements at every level. We do pre arranged kumite with grappling "add ons", I am told you do this also. Our JKD and Kempo programs have grappling up the yin/yang. I, like you Mike, was appauled at the answers we received at the dan test with regard to grappling. As you recall, most described grappling as "when you grab the other guy after a block".
Can we just say, for our purposes, that grappling is any jointlock/break, sweep, throw, or controlling (restraining) technique? Is that too limiting?
Mike, I don't have 1/10th of your grappling knowledge/skill, but any help you need with this grappling in Uechi, let me know!
Raf


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2000 7:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 76
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Ugh..I dislike grappling.
I hate to be touched in a fight. Why would anyone want to be rolling around on the floor? I don't mean to offend, but does not being on the floor present certain disadvantages?
-Meta


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2000 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 117
Location: Natick, MA
Meta,

A lot of grapplers prefer to take the fight to the ground. If you are faced with a Judoka or Jujitsu fighter, he or she would be more than willing to take a punch or even a kick, in order to get in and take you down. And once they do, you better know how to defend yourself there or... you are finished. I would also prefer to stay up and fight, but what if I don't have choice? I think it's very good to introduce grappling in Uechi, we need to know how defend ourselves against any kind of attacker.

Sorry if I didn't answer your question.

Regards,
Vladimir


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2000 8:28 pm 
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Location: Newton, MA
Being on the floor does present certain disadvantages, yes. However, there is a not inconsiderable chance that you'll end up there, and it's important to have an idea of what to do once you get there.

The only way you'll get through a fight without getting touched is if your attacker is blind and crippled...and perhaps not even then.

In TCMS, we make a distincition between grappling and groundfighting. Grappling is a sport where the object is to throw and/or submit the other person through joint manipulation (locks, throws, sweeps, ect.). GROUNDFIGHTING is using simple, gross motor skills (including strikes, biting, whatever) to deal with the attacker on the ground.

The difference is one of mindset: the Grappler says: "Yay! I'm on the ground. Now I can use my technique"

Groundfighter says: "Crap! I'm on the ground. I'm going to do whatever I have to do to this guy so I can get on me feet and get out of here!"

For teh street, groundfighting is much preferable. But it is a needed skill, like it or not.

My .002

Jake



------------------
Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here obident to their laws we lie
- Inscription at the site of Thermopylae

www.tonyblauer.com/Products/HighGear/HighGear.html


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2000 11:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 76
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
You wrote:
The only way you'll get through a fight without getting touched is if your attacker is
blind and crippled...and
perhaps not even then.

Please do not take this the wrong way.
But I would argue that this statement is quite incorrect.
There are many many forms that use highly adaptive evasion techniques, and do not need many blocks or parries. Off the
cuff, I'd mention Northern Shaolin Crane as one of them. If this technique is done
correctly,(and that is the key) there is no need to be on the ground. Does it happen? Yes, often. Is it
good to know how to
defend yourself once there? Most Important.
But by and large, I submit that it is a place to be avoided at all costs.
-That was my point, that's all Image
-Meta


------------------


If you overlook the Way right before your
eyes, how will you know the path beneath
your feet? Advancing has nothing to do with
near and far, yet delusion creates obstacles
high and wide. Students of the mystery, I
humbly urge you, don't waste a moment, night
or day!

- Shih-t'ou (700-790)


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:28 pm 
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Location: Newton, MA
"But by and large, I submit that it is a place to be avoided at all costs."

That much, we agree on.

And yes, there are many movements, tools, techniques, ect. out there that, if done perfectly will keep you from being hit.
Perfection is something that is rarely found in a real fight, if ever.

One should not rely on a perfect technique so much that one neglects the possibility that something will go wrong, and ignores what to do when that happens.

Jake Steinmann
PDR Team www.tonyblauer.com

------------------
Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here obident to their laws we lie
- Inscription at the site of Thermopylae

www.tonyblauer.com/Products/HighGear/HighGear.html


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2000 12:32 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 821
Location: Ptld OR USA
Hmm.

If I was going to describe grappling I'd say it was a term for the martial techniques that are not striking.

Being on the ground does present certain disadvantages, which is why I prefer to put people there as quickly as possible. I want to choose the disadvantages we will be fighting under.


"There are many many forms that use highly adaptive evasion techniques, and do not need many blocks or parries. Off the cuff, I'd mention Northern Shaolin Crane as one of them. If this technique is done correctly,(and that is the key) there is no need to be on the ground. "

Evasion is hard in a public restroom toilet stall or sitting in your car buckled in or suddenly starting awake with your feet still wrapped in the sheets. Combat is not a dancing game with unlimited room to move. Survival fighting starts much too close and with one party (usually the good guy) already injured.

Jake touched on it, but the serene calm of the master in the temple disintegrates under sudden fear, pain and hemorrhagic shock. The warriors learned serenity on the battlefield and prought it to the temples. It was not the other way around.

Rory


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2000 10:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 383
What if someone uses a large circle to twist and bend the attacker's arm behind his back, and then plants a forward thrusting kick through the attacker's kidney or spine, while pulling on the aforementioned arm? Is that "kicking" or "grappling"?

------------------
sean


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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2000 6:08 pm 
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Location: Massachusetts
(Leaps in with both feet...)

I whole heartedly agree with Murphy-san and Derderian-san that grappling is (or rather "should be") an integral part of training.
Where I think I differ is in whether Uechi-ryu itself needs or should be modified. If you modify Uechi-ryu (or any other kara-te style) to be something that it isn't, then it no longer remains Uechi-ryu (or whatever style).

Please, don't get me wrong... My thought is that in order to make the best all around and capable martial artists for yourself and your students, by all means introduce some type of "grappling" techniques. Teach them to your students and let them put them in their toolbox... test them on the techniques, but don't tell them that it's a Uechi-ryu technique. If you have rank/knowledge of a style of ju-jitsu, then introduce those techniques as what they are... techniques of XYZZY-ryu ju-jitsu and here's how they can benefit you (the student) and here's where they can be applied and now let's practice combining them with our Uechi-ryu techniques...

By doing that, Uechi-ryu remains pure, yet dynamic at the same time and you also create more knowledgeable and well-rounded martial artists.

Just MNSHO...


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