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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2000 10:51 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
One of those things, IMHO, that gets left behind in my system is the foot/leg locks. I don't even know if I've ever been shown any "official" locks, although my instructors have always been quick to say that what you can do with the upper body, you can manage down low. In theory, I believe that.

How many styles out there include feet or leg locks in their regular curriculum? It would be interesting to find out.

mike


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2000 12:09 pm 
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Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Mike,

Definitely valuable techniques to learn against kicks and actually pretty safe to practice since you really don't have to dump your partner.

The one I found easiest to learn works right out of the cross block against a roundhouse kick we see in the kyu kumite. It can also be adjusted for a front kick:

- The attacker launches a right roundhouse against the defender's left side.
- The defender drops his left hand low and the right hand comes across high to create and "cross."
- The cross stops the kick and the defender immediately grabs the heel area with high right hand and loops up with left hand to secure the leg.
- The defender torgues toward the right. While doing this, the right hand grip on the heel scribes a small circle downward and left hand securing the leg scribes a bigger circle, first up and then down, towards the back of the attacker's knee.
- The effect is that attacker will be forced leftward and downward onto the floor where the defender can apply several different finishing locks (or a kick to groin, followed by high jumping double heel stomp to the spine and/or kidney area -- love those kungfu movies... Image )

david


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2000 2:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1185
Location: Newton, MA
Sambo players have a reputation as being terrific at leg locks. Never having had the chance to work with one, I've no idea how true it is...but sport sambo does allow them (it dis-allows chokes, however).

A good leg lock is a nasty thing. I've heard far more stories of people getting their legs popped than arms (I actually have a weak ankle as a result of an over-zealous leg lock from several years ago).

Great to practice...but be careful.

Igor Yakminov has a set of tapes on the subject that is supposed to be excellent. I'll try to find the web address.

------------------
Jake Steinmann
PDR Team
www.tonyblauer.com
Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here obident to their laws we lie
- Inscription at the site of Thermopylae


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2000 3:47 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 117
Location: Natick, MA
Jake,

You are absolutely correct. SAMBO has quite a few leg locks. Although I only had a chance to learn three. As far as I remember, chokes were also allowed, but only gi-chokes. I remember because I lost a match in a tournament that way.
I think I mentioned this before, one of the oldest and well-respected SAMBO practitioners in Russia is teaching in Newton. I am sure we can arrange for a visit there some day and see what it's all about.

Leg locks also proved to be effective during the UFC fights, I believe Royce Graice won a match using a hip lock.

Vladimir


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2000 7:47 pm 
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Location: Natick, MA
Mike,

The rules of Sport SAMBO are actually pretty similar to Olympic Judo, with few exceptions. Here is a website that outlines them all (English on the right): http://members.tripod.com/samboubc/samborules.htm


Combat SAMBO is different. It is taught in the Special Forces, special units of militia (police) and FSB - former KGB. There is also a website with video clips and photos: http://combatsambo.jumpsports.com/

Regards,
Vladimir




[This message has been edited by Vladimir (edited December 13, 2000).]


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2000 8:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 30, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1185
Location: Newton, MA
There is also a wealth of information, on
SAMBO and Russian Martial Arts in general
at www.amerross.com

These guys have some neat ideas, and seem
very intelligent. I'm hoping to pick up some
of their tapes for the holidays.


------------------
Jake Steinmann
PDR Team
www.tonyblauer.com
Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here obident to their laws we lie
- Inscription at the site of Thermopylae


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2000 12:08 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Mike,

May be able to come by in the coming week. I'll email you.

Jake, I actually think any lock applied too fast has the potential to be nasty, especially if nage/tori has no regard for uke, and uke is too macho to tap out before the danger/damage point. That is a real tricky part about learning locks -- the proper amount of force and the proper amount of resistance.

david


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2000 5:15 am 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
David,

We should still put some of that stuff to video so we can include it on the forum. I would love to see that move.

I would also like to see some Sambo in action. What are the rules Vladimir?

mike


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2000 2:07 pm 
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Location: Newton, MA
Maybe I just have weak legs Image

Seriously, you're right...any lock done to fast will mess up the joint (part of the reason I stopped going to Aikido classes was because my wrists were killing me...all the time).

There are a few leg locks, like the heel hook, that are EXTREMELY sudden. It's one of those bizaare locks where if you wait to feel the pain to tap, somethings already been busted.

For whatever reason, I hear more stories about people getting hurt with leg locks than not...maybe it's just me.

They are a phenomenal tool, but like anything else, if you train dumb, you'll probably get hurt.



------------------
Jake Steinmann
PDR Team
www.tonyblauer.com
Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here obident to their laws we lie
- Inscription at the site of Thermopylae


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2000 7:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 08, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1070
Isn't that the real difference between locks and breaks, David: the speed with which they applied?

student


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2000 12:11 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 383
The thought of practicing any kind of knee lock or twist makes me wince.

That kind of thing could easily lead to a permanent problem.

Everyone should be kind to their joints, or they might let you down when you really need them.

My knees are pretty bogus. All I can do now is work on strengthening the tendons.

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sean


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2000 12:37 am 
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Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Isn't that the real difference between locks and breaks, David: the speed with which they applied?


Well... The amount of force is also a variable here. I seen folks who are petty fast but still have control over amount of strength used. They can get a lock on pretty fast without hurting someone willing to tap. Obviously, if uke struggles beyond the safety margin and nage applies a more force in response...

Also, some fast and powerfully applied locks will result in dislocation and/or tears and not necessarily breaks. Small consolation for the injured party.

Sean, always practice within whatever safety zone you've set for yourself. No one should try to force you to do otherwise.

david


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2000 3:45 am 
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Location: Ptld OR USA
Hey,

Been out of the country for a week. Looks like the board has been busy.

Judo used to allow leg-locks. At least one is still preserved in the kata. They were removed as a safety consideration because the window between serious injury and the pain threshhold was so small. Knees simply don't register the pain until the joint is injured or nearly so.

Rory


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2000 8:40 am 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 3
Location: Mikkeli, Finland
I believe that many Jitsu schools still teach leg locks to even lower grades. I studied Liikan Jitsu and I remember that we had to know five leg locks for our orange belt grading. I also hear that the Dutch Police Force are taught leg locks. The problem is that these leg locks can cause the "customer" to paralyze or in extreme cases can cause that person to die. Some human rights organizations are protesting the use of these techniques. It is true that it's a lot more dangerous to practice these leg techniques than it is to practice arm locks. The knee joint as well as wrist can sometimes break before the pain comes in. Than doesn't happen with elbow. That's why many schools have left them out of their system.


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 Post subject: ashi gatame
PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:38 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
Welcome back, Rory, and welcome to JO.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
The problem is that these leg locks can cause the "customer" to paralyze or in extreme cases can cause that person to die.


Whoa! J.O. are you sure the lock was the cause, or some other technique or unanticipated consequence like the uke hitting his head? Any one else heard of this?

Vladmir, Sambo uses a lot of leg locks. Have you heard of this?

david
who is asking so as to avoid unintentional paralysis or death.


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