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 Post subject: nage waza
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:50 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
After reviewing some of the posts, I thought we would navigate toward a discussion on technique if that's ok. I thought I would start with the Nage Waza. I could, of course, dig out Kano sensei's book, but I'll go in no particular order.

I wanted to start out with Seionage, or more commonly known as the shoulder throw. It's kind of funny (i.e. strange) that it's called the shoulder throw, but you shouldn't really be using your shoulder at all; instead, you should be throwing with the bicep.

Anyway, the technique is one where you (I'm going to explain everything from the right perspective, not the left)take your opponant's right arm with both of your arms, while you turn your back toward him (your right grip will be higher on his arm then your left).

Next, position your feet semi-close together in the middle of his body.

Then, BEND YOUR KNEES, and while leaving a small gap between bodies bend at the hip while pulling him onto you. Make sure that you are lower than his center of balance.

Lastly, as you straighten out your knees, pull his arm and body from the right shoulder to the left foot.

Remember, at no time should there be any stress on the back. All the lifting is done with the legs. Very important to know!


Anyway, with that described, there is also a version where a person can drop to their knees to throw the attacker (i.e. drop seionage). How many perfer doing it that way I wonder? I would definately use the drop with someone heavier than me, or even smaller in height than myself (watch out David).

opinions?

mike


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 Post subject: nage waza
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2001 7:30 pm 
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Being a person of the rather large persuasion, I switched from the normal seionage to more of a drop seionage after messing up the knees and back. It kept me from putting too much pressure on the knees with the lift by basically taking them out of the picture. I first got the hang of it by starting like a normal seionage and ending in almost a tai-otoshi fashion dropping down. (Hope that makes sense, it's the way it "felt" anyway. Image ) Shihan always said that even if one was injured there were ways to do techniques and keep going. When the need arose, even with injuries, the technique just seemed to "evolve". (Not to be confused with Shiho-nage... Image )


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 Post subject: nage waza
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2001 9:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Panther,

I too like the drop seionage at times. It certainly has its advantages with different size people.

I questions though as to leaving the leg in a taiotoshi position. Wouldn't you be afrain of the person coming down on the knee, especially if you don't time the drop correctly (no offense, but a definate possibility)?

I would think that you would like to drop down with your knees right down to your feet, not fall forward to your knees. This would allow the tori to pull the attacker onto his balls of his feet, thus forcing him to lose his balance. Otherwise, if you fall forward and he doesn't come with you, your in deep doo doo.

mike


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 Post subject: nage waza
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2001 10:31 am 
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Location: Ptld OR USA
Mike,

If you come down on your left knee, you have the drop seoi-nage. If you keep the same arm position and come down to a very tight, low tai-otoshi position with the right knee against uke's right shin, you have seoi-otoshi, which I think Panther is describing. Wait. Scratch that. The formal throw uses the hands in the morote-seoi nage position. Still, principle should be the same.

I'm interested in your statement about throwing with the bicep. I've always taught that the full-entry hip throws, such as O-goshi, seoi-nage and goshi-nage were all the same throw: how you placed your hands was a minor detail. This could be interesting.

Rory


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 Post subject: nage waza
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2001 10:42 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Boston, MA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Anyway, with that described, there is also a version where a person can drop to their knees to throw the attacker (i.e. drop seionage). How many perfer doing it that way I wonder? I would definately use the drop with someone heavier than me, or even smaller in height than myself (watch out David).


Just do it, Mike. I need the breakfall practice. Image

Actually, the reverse of this, I sometimes find dropping straight down with my weight, onto my knees, work better with big people. I can't sustain their weight or their momentum in the throw. So, dropping down, pulls them off balance and over me.

david


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 Post subject: nage waza
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Rory,

I am picturing the seiotoshi as something else and will have to get back to you after I look at it in the dojo. However, I would refrain from the taiotoshi from the drop position only because when I practice the "body drop," I throw my opponant in a whipping fashion around and do not use the hip as a fulcrum.

Using the bicep when I throw seionage means that I load with the hip the same way as any other goshi technique, but the placement of my hands (morote) are such that his arm falls over my bicep and not my shoulder. It's a safer motion.

David,

Dropping down is what I alluded to before. That is how I teach the drop. It's more of a suprise and I believe it gives the tori an extra advantage in his kozushi(sp?).

PS. You'll have to come down and tell me how winterfest went.

mike


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