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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2001 1:11 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 252
Location: Brockton, MA 02401
Joe Pomfret here (messed up the user name.)
I look foreward to the regional seminar on March 3rd. I will be fighting in a "No Holds Barred" fight that evening in New Bedford (Club Joker's), I hope some of you will make it.
Uechi people should take a close look at the basic knee and ankle locks. Try sliding into an easy inside heel hook from the top position of the last series in Dan Kumite.
Slide your opponents knee in-between your legs as you sit on your outside hip. Squeeze your knees together, engage your inside forearm with your opponent's heel, twist the heel away and to the left. BE CAREFUL--VERY DANGEROUS! This technique can be done safely with a responsible training partner.
Keep up the grappling talk for Uechi Practitioners!
Joe P.


[This message has been edited by Joe Sullivan (edited February 25, 2001).]


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2001 5:53 am 
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Location: Ptld OR USA
Well, Mike, since it seems you and I are pretty much just posting to each other, maybe some basics that the thumpin' crowd can use might liven things up.

Kansetsu waza are joint attacks. For our purposes, the body has four kinds of joints, three of which can be locked. You can't really lock out the fused joints of the skull.

The types:

Hinge joints: Elbow, knee and the two distal joints of the fingers (one on thumb).

Ball and socket joints: Shoulder, hip, and the base of the fingers.

Gliding joints: Wrist, ankle and spine.

In general, hinge joints are locked by placing a fulcrum against the back of the joint (or just proximal to the back of the joint) and appling pressure as far towards the distal end of the connecting distal bone as you can. If the fulcrum and the distal end are pushed in opposite directions, the two-way-action is far more effective than holding one static and pushing just on the other. Pretty much all elbow, kne and straight finger locks work off this pattern. Experiment with this effect by locking elbows using your hands, feet, hips, the wall and head. All the same.

In general, ball and socket joints are attacked by bending the hinge joint just distal (bend elbow to attack shoulder) to 90 degrees and use the bend like the handle on a water faucet to twist the ball and socket joint. The elevated shoulder lock looks like an exception, but it is just using the elbows limited range of motion to get the same effect with a longer lever arm, a pump handle instead of a faucet.

The gliding joints have the greatest range of motion. They can be locked in any direction but are most efficiently attacked by bending (in any direction) AND twisting. One direction of twist will lock up faster, but both will work.

Rory


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2001 10:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Joe,

Thanks for joining in the conversation. I was wondering when you would get online and participate with your keen insight. BTW, good luck on your NHB competition. I wish you the best of luck (like you need it). I also wish I could make it to the regional this weekend, but work commitments dictate otherwise (this will be the first one that I have missed). God, am I feeling guilty.

Anyway, the ashi/hiza gatame you describe (if it is the one I am thinking of) is extremely painful when applied correctly. Do you use it often in the competition circuit? As a matter of fact, how often do you use lower body locks when you compete, or do you end up staying topside?

Rory,

That's ok, if you and I (now Joe)are the only ones who like to talk about this stuff. I personally find it amazing that there is not more interest in the grappling/jujitsu/aikdo/whatever field. If you read the other forums (and I know you do) you see everyone speaking about real life situations, etc. My question is what do they expect to use in a "real life" situation? I love my Uechi and all it has done for me, but lets be honest, I probably going to use the jujitsu way before I use the karate (in the physical sense). People should wake up to that before it's too late.

mike


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:26 am 
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Location: Boston, MA
C'mon guys... I am believer. Image

Rory, Good descriptions.

I am at best a novice with grappling on the ground/mat. Have to agree with Joe that I find ankle/leg locks easier to get. I think folks who are not extensively trained in grappling tend to think more about defending their arms than their legs.

Keep posting. I enjoy reading even if I don't always jump in. Image

david


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2001 12:07 pm 
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Posts: 1070
I don't believe I'm taking the time to post this morning when I have a hearing and a jury trial and I have yet to do my exercises, but....

Rory, clarify for me, please, why you state you'd probably use your jujutsu before your karate?

I know why I'd state it - because it gives me a greater range of techniques for the continuum of force, rather than forcing me to go for serious physical injury right off the bat - but that doesn't make it your reason.

student

[This message has been edited by student (edited February 26, 2001).]


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2001 11:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 270
Location: Washington, DC
I love joint attacks!!! I just don't know any of the names. So I tend to just lurk.

And, since joint locks don't need nearly the force that blunt techniques do, they are sooooo appealing to me as a woman.

I've been working on defenses against face slaps. (I will refrain from using the pejorative term).

Right now the one I'm training comes out of Yang-Jwing-Ming's analysis of shaolin chi-na book (the big pink one). It suggests a two handed block to the arm and grabbing the fingers of the attacker.
Then, using a large circular motion, bending whatever finger(s) you catch a hold of toward the back of the wrist while executing a large circular motion that (hopefully) rotates the attackers arm backwards, then at the end you scoop upwards with their fingers which brings them onto their tip-toes with the elbow locked straight and unable to think about anything but the pain in their wrist/finger(s) [ this move is very similar to the rising scooping block from sanseiryu)

So far, it works the first time if the guy's aren't expecting it. After that they're too stiff and I can't overpower their arms.

Dana


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2001 11:11 am 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Student,

I think it was me who said that I would use my jujitsu before my karate. So I will try to justify why I said this.

I think (no scientific evidence here, only personal observation)for the most part, people don't know when they are going to get into a fight, or conflict of whatever degree. It happens all too fast for most of us mortals to react "before" it happens. Therefore, I don't think we always end up with the necessary what I like to call "Eye Distance" between me and the assailant.

Let's be honest, usually the fight ends up with a lot of clutching, grabbing, etc., and possibility ground-fighting situation. Does our karate styles cover that? I don't know. I know in Uechi you could make the argument that it shows people how to get out of grabs, etc., but I would certainly be hard-pressed to find where it teaches me how to work from the floor.

Jujitsu, on the other hand, is a combat art. There is no "do" in jujitsu, so the techniques are still geared for the fight in a more realistic manner. What do I mean by that? I will use the two styles that I know. In Uechi, we learn as in Kanshiwa how to turn our body 90 degrees in order to block and punch. Probably a "less-than-effective" way of really protecting oneself in a real situation. On the other hand, in jujitsu, we techniques that are readily available and useful.

thanks,

mike


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2001 11:45 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Boston, MA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
In Uechi, we learn as in Kanshiwa how to turn our body 90 degrees in order to block and punch. Probably a "less-than-effective" way of really protecting oneself in a real situation. On the other hand, in jujitsu, we techniques that are readily available and useful.


Mike, you lost me here. "Effectiveness" is what an individual can do and not any specific technique unto itself, IMO.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I think (no scientific evidence here, only personal observation)for the most part, people don't know when they are going to get into a fight, or conflict of whatever degree. It happens all too fast for most of us mortals to react "before" it happens. Therefore, I don't think we always end up with the necessary what I like to call "Eye Distance" between me and the assailant.


My own personal experience is to the contrary. I have never gone down into a ground grappling situation because it's bad down there and I have been successful thusfar in avoiding it in all my self-defense and fight situations. The only times I have gone down there is because I want to avoid hurting the other person, usually at work. If it is out on the street and I don't know the other person (or even if I did in some cases), I just want to DROP 'em, anyway I can.

I am not saying grappling techniques aren't important. I absolutely believe they are useful and part of the overall arsenal. For me though, given a choice to grapple or to slug it out, I take the latter just because I have almost absolute confidence that if I connect with one or two hits, the other guy is going down. (Belief backed by experience is good as anything out there.)

david



[This message has been edited by david (edited February 28, 2001).]


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2001 12:18 pm 
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Posts: 1070
Mike:

Thank you. Yes, it was you who stated that opinion; it's clearly there. Apparently being up for two hearings/trials affected me more than I knew (or maybe I was just insufficiently caffeinated? "Oh, Tony...!")


student


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2001 9:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
David,

First of all, I apologize for all the grammatical errors in my posts lately, as I'm working on zero rest. Hopefully, things will calm down soon.

Anyway, you're right when you say it's the person not the technique that dictates effectiveness; however if you have technique that is geared for one thing (i.e. practice of movement) and the situation changes, and you have nothing else in the arsenal, then you're in trouble. I think jujitsu, from a technique standpoint, resolves that issue. But it does, as you say, depend on the person too.

As for you never going down in a fight, you my friend are the balls!!! :-) And I mean that from the heart, because I believe you are an exception to the rule. Seeing fights on a regular basis (school teacher), and having been in a couple myself, I've never seen people not get into a grappling match after the initial punch or push (sorry about the double negative). I would love to get a step back and get a few shots in first, but I'm just as comfortable being real close and popping a rib or two out of place, or keeping a firm grip on a couple of testicles or major blood vessal. Know what I mean?

mike


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:35 am 
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Location: Ptld OR USA
David,
Styles do have differences in assumptions and mind-sets. What range you prefer to fight at is almost always decided by the style you train in. There are no long-range judokas and dam' few infighting taekwondoists. The core techniques just don't work.

I prefer Jujutsu for two reasons. First, it has a greater range of controlled effect. With a joint lock I can choose to unbalance, immobilize, gain pain compliance or cripple with the exact same technique. Very few strikes allow that precision and if I elbow someone in the head the reaction can range from killing to blinding to nothing and the variation is based on his head, not my strike.

The second reason is assumptions. Jujutsu has a full range of responses whether the threat is behind you, on top of you, in front of you or wrapped around your knees. I hear karatekas say quite often that throwing practice makes them uncomfortable because they are turning their back on the bad guy. I tell them "Don't worry. The bad guys going to grab you from behind. He'll hand you that part."

Rory
(Not in any way intended as a slam against karate, karatekas, Uechi-ryu or the patrons or advertisers of this board. Opinions expressed....)


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2001 1:23 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Boston, MA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Styles do have differences in assumptions and mind-sets. What range you prefer to fight at is almost always decided by the style you train in.


Rory, right you are about underlying concepts and jujutsu may have a broader range in it's theory and, sometimes, practice. I qualify the latter because we have all witnessed some "specializing" in the various jujutsu streams. At the same time, it is the practitioner who must actualized those concepts. Most folks will have some "natural" tendency towards certain techniques and ranges and focus on that vs some other aspects present in their art. At the same time, we will encounter proponents of, perhaps, more limited scope arts who find ways to expand beyond the supposed boundaries in their chosen arts. The latter is actually happening with a significant portion of Uechi folks on this forum.

For me, it becomes somewhat moot to say this art vs that when it usually comes down to the actual individual proponents and their skills vs those of their opponents.

Mike, I don't mean to come off sounding overconfident. I really am not. My intention is to say, when it hits the fan, there are ways to go that I much prefer though I try to train for the contingencies. When it happens, the mindset is as important if not more so than the skills. There is no point in pondering weaknesses. Rather, one focuses on the strengths. This begets belief, confidence and, perhaps, even arrogance... I have to...because I really believe this plays a part in carrying me through. I'm not sure I am conveying this attitude accurately in words.

david


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2001 10:46 am 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Rory,

I agree with everything you have stated with the exception of the elbow strike example. I think the variation is about your strike and not the target. If you are throwing a poor elbow strike (or anything else poorly thrown), then you are in trouble no matter where you are striking. My point, and this is what David was saying too (here I am playing both sides again) is that it is more about the person than the technique, but I say, if the technique is inappropriate for the situation, then what good is it.

David,

I know exactly what you are saying, and yes, you are getting your point across. I actually believe you above many others would fight the way YOU want to fight if the occasion occured, because you have the ability and the mindset; however, mindset can only carry a person so far. They must be prepared for inevitable, and I believe if you limit yourself to a situation, you usually find yourself on the floor pretty quickly (for most of us) :-). I would think of it as if I were sparring you. If I have a preconceived counter-attack technique I want to practice during our bout and you never throw the right lead-in, I'm going to get hit an awful lot of times unless I change my tactics. Don't you think?

mike


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2001 5:22 am 
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Posts: 252
Location: Brockton, MA 02401
Joe P.

Mike, sorry it took me so long.

To answer your question, knee and ankle locks are being refined more and more due to the fact that grapplers are protecting their upper half more effectively. I am starting to use them a lot more than I used to. I love the heel hook and Knee bar from the side mount.

David, against an untrained grappler (ground style) the neck is a great place to start your ground attack. Against a true ground fighter you WILL go to the ground. I understand your affinity for attacking your oppnent's leg while on the ground. May I suggest going to your opponent's back ASAP and sinking in a rear-naked choke. This is nice addition to the leg submissions you already posess. practice setting those hooks and swimming to the neck...nighty night to your opponent. This technique (rear naked) is the one I will be looking for during my NHB fight on Saturday night.

Question...say a fighter's ability equals the total of his\her techniques mastered (for arguments sake, let's not include the ability to perform under pressure). What percentage of fighting techniques mastered should be striking-timing, blocking, takedowns, holding and escaping positions on the ground, and submissions (stand-up or on the ground)? I don't think one can truthfully day that one of those catagories should hold more than a 50% majority of any fighter's mastered techniques. I realize it isn't that simple, but let's play anyway.

My humble opinion:
1. striking-timing-distancing 30%
2. blocking 5% (aren't many blocks in a REAL fight...keep your hands up!)
3. takedowns 20%
4. holding and escaping ground positions 25%
5. Submissions 20%
TOTAL=100%

Boy, this internet stuff is fun.

Joe Pomfret

[This message has been edited by Joe Sullivan (edited March 01, 2001).]


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 Post subject: Basic kansetsu
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2001 6:11 am 
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Location: Ptld OR USA
Mike-
I understand your point about the elbow. I would like to believe that technique and targetting would get reliable results. However, as some one who was hit square in the back of the head with a crowbar and just turned and snarled my experience just doesn't support that.

Joe-
I don't think you can separate that question from what you are training for. Dueling, contest, multiple opponents, restraining inmates or mental patients, sudden surprise attacks, weapons will all have a different percentage. Improvised weapons and escape route planning E&E also fit into it.

Rory


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