Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby Malcolm Wagner » Sat Mar 24, 2001 1:03 pm

Hello Group,

To me, one of the scariest positions to be in is to have some one mounted on your back, you are stomach down, their hooks are in, the choke is milked and reinforced with the other hand, you are getting very sleepy----what, if tapping is not an option, should one do before the sand-man takes you away?

Breathless with anticipation Image
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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby Joe Sullivan » Sun Mar 25, 2001 8:58 pm

Joe P. here,

Malcomn, good question. The first thing you need to do is tuck you chin to protect your neck. Tucking the chin will not prevent the choke for very long, but long enough for you to work on the hooks hold your hips in place.

while lying on your stomach, turn one leg inwards and drive the knee towards your other knee. It's almost like peeling the hook off. Once that one hook is off, keep that leg flat to the ground so that the hook cannot be re-applied. There is one hook remaining. that is O.K. With the leg that is free, turn your body towards the remaining hook and away so that you are sitting on your but.

Now you have two options; either put your opponent in the guard position, or go to his back...GO TO HIS BACK!

Obviously this technique is hard to comprehend just by reading it, so get out there and train.

Joe P.
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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby Malcolm Wagner » Tue Mar 27, 2001 2:26 am

Joe,

Thanks for the advice. You wrote:"There is one hook remaining. that is O.K. With the leg that is free, turn your body towards the remaining hook and away so that you are sitting on your but." I understand, maybe you could also be sitting on the opponent's leg to tie him up while you take him to his back. Whatcha think?

Out of the blue question:

Did you feel as confident in your chosen system of karate before you discovered the ground-game?

In the Arts,
Mal
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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby Joe Sullivan » Tue Mar 27, 2001 8:35 pm

Joe P.

Yes, providing he does not sense your intentions and square himself away...that is when you will put him in your guard. I don't recommend the guard as a primary fighting position, but it is better to have him there than on your back.

As for your second question, I felt very comfortable with my stand-up fighting capabilities before getting into submission grappling. I started ground-fighting after about 10 years of training under Bob bethoney, I was a two time Uechi sparring champ, and a close combat instructor for the U.S. Marines.

I got into ju-jitsu (Brazilian) when a friend of mine and myself were training one day. He had been training with renzo Gracie, he was also a 3rd degree in Uechi. I found that not only was his stand up fighting as good or better than mine, but he could, and did, take me to the ground anytime he wanted to...no matter what I did to try and stop him. When he got me to the ground, he was a shark, and I was the person who could not swim. I'm not exagerating.

It was at that point that I knew I had to try my best to master this art and pass it on to my students.

When I started to learn Brazilian, sometimes I felt as if I was betraying my sensei or my system. I can still imagine my sensei saying things like, "Stay with Uechi...you don't want to be a jack of all trades but a master on none." I don't know how he feels about cross training these days.

I still love Uechi, but I also know you MUST know how to take an opponent down in many different ways, then know what to do from there.

Sorry for the wordiness.

Joe P.

[This message has been edited by Joe Sullivan (edited March 27, 2001).]
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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby LenTesta » Wed Mar 28, 2001 2:45 pm

Joe:
As you know, I can not speak for our Sensei. However, I know that his attitude about being a Master of Uechi-ryu has not changed.
He is a realist though, and knows that some of us will not be able to stay on our feet. I am sure that to be effective while on the ground you must learn how to break the hooks and the holds, just as we learned how to defend the strikes.

I know he has much experience in techniques of controlling which he has taught to the Police Academy recruits. He is very fast and very strong and I have not seen many practitioners take him down, and the few who had were not succesful in getting him locked up while on the floor.

I am curious. Have you ever grappled with Sensei Bethoney?


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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby Joe Sullivan » Wed Mar 28, 2001 8:30 pm

Len, no I have not done any ground- fighting with Bob.

Tom merlino has though. Tom is a blue belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He tapped out Bob while on the ground. I heard this from Tom.

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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby Joe Sullivan » Thu Mar 29, 2001 8:25 pm

Joe P.

You might bet a blue belt after a year in training.

The structure goes blue, purple, brown, then black. It takes about 10 years of intense training and competing to get your black.

Why would I not wan't to answer your question about rank? I have NOTHING to hide. I am honestly considering throwing out belt ranks for adults altogether.

I am a purple belt at JBA Jiu-Jitsu in fallriver under Don Banville II, and have been training for about four years; both there and at Boston Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in Watertown.

I got my karate black in three years; I wonder what that means?

You will have to ask Bob or Tom about the grappling match, I was not there.

I have to add though, I love our sensei very much, but people without regular takedown experience...the odds are against them to defend the shoot.

Joe P.
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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby LenTesta » Fri Mar 30, 2001 5:33 am

Joe:
That is very interesting.

I have a few questions. If you do not wish to answer the last one that is OK.

How many years of training is Blue Belt?

How did he get Bob down?

What is your current rank in BJJ?
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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby RA Miller » Fri Mar 30, 2001 10:55 am

Rear mount with hooks sunk? I'm assuming that this involves your opponent behind you, going for the strangle with his feet wrapped around your waist to extend the spine? Dam' this new-fangled terminology! I'd much rather be face down than on top with the opponent under me. The spine extension really maximizes the strangle.

Joe's right about tucking the chin. That should be extinct. Depending on the type of strangle you might be able to slide your hands inside your own lapels to your throat. If you come up on your knees and elbows you will be in a turtle. I am relatively small and strong for my size. I've been very successful in rolling them off my right shoulder from this position if the are going for a collar choke. A naked strangle is much harder, especially if they are pressing against the back of your head with a hadaka-jime scissoring action. In that case, there is so little to lose that I get my feet under me and do a full 180 flip forward. Usually the impact of them hitting the ground and me landing on top loosens the grip. Sometimes I wind up in that back down position, staring at a ceiling that suddenl tunnels and turns red...

Rory
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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby Steve » Sat Mar 31, 2001 6:53 pm

Joe forgot to mention white belt in his sequence. Each level takes an average of two years to complete. Exceptional students can go from white to blue in just over a year. I'm not exceptional. How do I know? Just look at the color of my ju-jitsu belt (it's still white)!!!

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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby T Rose » Tue Apr 10, 2001 4:50 pm

this reply isn't in response to heel hooks, god and joe knows that I know nothing of grappling. It is in reply to cross training...

hey, 27 years of fighting here, okinawa, anywhere ... fighting Joe on the ground was truly like fighting a shark .. not only that but his white belts spanked me. We weren't doing any stand up fighting but I honestly believe that eventually we would have gone to the ground. Am I saying that JJ is better? Nope. They spend their time studying how to take a striker down. I've spend zero time figuring out how to keep a grappler off of me. Who do you think is better prepared? Little bit of time, some thought, some pratice, some comfort and I can figure it out.

I believe that I must master Uechi.. that also means understanding what all opponents will do. How can I be proficient is Uechi if I can't keep from going down, or can't fight my way back up? I believe in cross training so I can add and be more proficient in my beloved Uechi. I totally believe that Kanbum was exposed to grappling and knew how to defend against it and USE it. In GEM's book, if I remember. There was one account of Kanbum fighting Moto or Moko?? What did Kanbum do? His famous front kick? He jumped on the guys back and it probally wasn't for a piggy back ride. So I bought a judo gi, threw the white belt in my bag and am heading for Joe's on Saturday the 14th. I have absolutely no time. Yet this is important enough to me that I will make the time on the 14th and after... that is if Joe doesn't mind a stiff student..


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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby Joe Sullivan » Tue Apr 10, 2001 8:36 pm

Joe P.

T, Uechi people take to grappling like a fish takes to water. You are going to be pleasantly pleased at how quickly you adapt these techniques to your style.

I am always surprised at how many former and current Uechi people I find in the ground-fighting community. My thinking is that most people in our system have an urge to gravitate towards technique that really works, and add it to their "toolbelt."

In addition, my thinking is that the "need" to train in reality-based technique was instilled in us by those who came before us.
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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby hybrid » Thu Apr 12, 2001 4:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RA Miller:
[B]Rear mount with hooks sunk? I'm assuming that this involves your opponent behind you, going for the strangle with his feet wrapped around your waist to extend the spine? Dam' this new-fangled terminology! I'd much rather be face down than on top with the opponent under me. The spine extension really maximizes the strangle.

Joe's right about tucking the chin. That should be extinct. Depending on the type of strangle you might be able to slide your hands inside your own lapels to your throat. If you come up on your knees and elbows you will be in a turtle. I am relatively small and strong for my size. I've been very successful in rolling them off my right shoulder from this position if the are going for a collar choke. A naked strangle is much harder, especially if they are pressing against the back of your head with a hadaka-jime scissoring action. In that case, there is so little to lose that I get my feet under me and do a full 180 flip forward. Usually the impact of them hitting the ground and me landing on top loosens the grip. Sometimes I wind up in that back down position, staring at a ceiling that suddenl tunnels and turns red...

Rory/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
____________________________________________

Hybrid,

When an opponent hooks you properly it's
impossible to "go to your hands and knees".
Hooking involves placing your feet under
the bottom man's thighs,(thus holding his knees off the ground)not around his waist.
hybrid
 

Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby RickLiebespach » Tue Apr 17, 2001 2:31 am

Question.
I've never been involved in any of what you're talking about but what about going for his nuts, eyes or a finger to the throat, or a pinch of whatever you can get between your finger nails?
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Escaping the Rear-Mount (with hooks sunk)

Postby Malcolm Wagner » Tue Apr 17, 2001 12:15 pm

Rick-San,

Yes, eyes and genitalia are always good options, but you must attack these areas before the choke is sunk. If you have never been choked properly, you don't know the desperation of feeling your lights go out---the only thing you are thinking about is sleep, wonderful sleee----p;-)

Mal (thankful that tapping has been an option so far) Wagner
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