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 Post subject: Atemi
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2001 1:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 988
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
I know I have discussed this topic before, but it seems like a subject that needs to be discussed over and over again as there are many people out there who think that they can end a fight like Joe Pomfret did at his recent fight.

First of all, let's be honest, Joe is an incredible talent (and fun to watch). What he does is an example of his many years of training various arts and martial ways (i.e. Uechi, BJJ, Marine Corp., etc.). But for the rest of us, the distraction (i.e. atemi) is an essential part of the fight. Let's face it, when you are rolling along the ground with someone who may seemingly get the advantage on you, are you going to start playing by the rules??? The answer is rightfully no. Do what you have to do to get the person off of you and then go to town.

But what do you do? What if the person is doing this or that? There is no correct answer to those questions. What you have to do is look at what is vunerable. And yes folks, I don't care who the person is, they always leave something open; you just have to find it. That doesn't mean that you have to wail on the person once you find the spot. If it is a reasonable area, you may not have to hit it that hard to move the person off of what they were doing.

The key though is to react once you do strike the area. Don't sit there like a deer in the headlights. Strike and move! Heard that before in you training??? I bet you have. Even in Uechi sparring, that premise is paramount. Hit and MOVE!!

The atemi in itself is a killing blow technically, but in a fight you don't have to use it as such. I teach it as a distraction in order to do what I really want. For example, a person is sitting on top of me while I am on the floor (let's assume I didn't get to the guard), a quick shoken to the ribs moves him enough enabling me to move either to the guard or out of the situation. I don't mean a punch to the ribs, but using constant pressure in between a rib or two. That is a simple example, but those of you who have worked with me, know how effective it can be.

commments,

mike


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 Post subject: Atemi
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2001 2:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Brockton, MA, USA
I learned this very quickly when you showed it to us at the throwing seminar that you conducted at the BUKA.

I demonstrated this on Fred last Wednesday.

He was in the mount position and I was not in the guard. I used my right handed shoken into the side of his left ribs and just pushed him off of me with constant pressure. It was not a strike. I used a screwing motion back and forth with the shoken once I put it into his ribs.
Very effective with many people.

However, it did not work during the seminar against Eugene when we were doing randori.

It still doesn't hurt to try it though.

I hope we will get to work it again at Joe's Seminar on the 9th of June.



------------------
Len


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 Post subject: Atemi
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2001 7:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 284
Location: Mansfield, MA USA
Mike,
As to Joe Pomfret's fight, the kick was the atemi. As you wrote, he hit and moved. As soon as his victim, er, opponent, hit the floor, Joe was on top of him. Although the roundhouse kick won the fight, Joe wasn't counting on the kick to win the fight. That's why I always have a problem with terming an atemi simply as a distraction. I have hear you say on many occasion, there is no such thing as a fake in Uechi. If you're going to hit, then HIT.

Len,
Don't feel bad about the shoken not moving Eugene. After training with him for several years, I am pretty sure that anything that doesn't kill him won't hurt him. Image

Norm Abrahamson


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 Post subject: Atemi
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2001 8:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Len and Norm,

Remember what I said. There are two definitions to this word: the literal translation (and I paraphrase) is a death blow, while the working definition that I use is a distraction. I would never look to use the atemi as the only move. Like anything else, some people have a tremendous tolerance to pain, but what are you really trying to do. The answer?? Get the person's mind off of what they were doing. This is why it works so effectively.

mike


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 Post subject: Atemi
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2001 3:19 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3542
Location: Valhalla
Eugene could have had more compression on the hold or more tolerance. Ideally you would move into another hold with that shoken technique where you may be harder to reach. Of course that would provide an opportunity to escape, Or allow a lock to be put on your arm if you extend too far with the shoken.
Mike I thought atemi was just the set up strike for a throw, is it different in judo than Jujitsu or have I interpreted the meaning wrong?
fred


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 Post subject: Atemi
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2001 9:02 am 
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 11
Location: PDX OR USA
Fred,
It's different in different styles of jujutsu. In the later, police-based restraint styles the atemi is usually a distraction. In the older battlefield styles it is usually to kill or cripple.

For instance slaps to both ears; shutos in quick succession to both carotid triangle followed by a percussion slap to the base of the skull; or o-soto-gari as two strikes, a Y to the throat combined with a rear kick to the calf just below the knee...

Rory


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 Post subject: Atemi
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2001 9:07 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 252
Location: Brockton, MA 02401
Pomfret,

Great discussion guys.

This highlights a great dilema to teaching and learning martial arts. When a topic is being taught, are you teaching for the street, or for the dojo? There is usually a difference, especially if one wants to keep students.

I don't know what Atemi means, but it sounds like "Do-mean-things-to-the-guy-so-that-you-can-do-something-else-that-would-realy-hurt- him." Sounds good.

When I was a sniper in the Marine Corps, my platoon had a motto. That motto was simply "What ever it takes." Which means,do what ever it takes in order to get the job, any job, done.

Good training


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 Post subject: Atemi
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2001 2:24 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 988
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Joe,

Right you are. It is simply "whatever it takes" to get the person's mind off of what they are doing (or trying to do) to you. One example of a great technique that you will not see in any traditional jujitsu class or taught in any dojo is the ever popular "spit in the face technique". There is no one that I know that likes to be spat in the face. Try it (or pretend to) at your own dojo.

mike


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 Post subject: Atemi
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2001 5:19 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
The point is that they (Atemi) are not really discussed or taught as such to the students, and if so, only in passing. Why? Because they can't really be practiced without causing injury to your partner. They shouldn't, however, be ignored in your training. Even Joe talks about using them (although he doesn't use the Japanese) when he finds himself in a situation where the other guy can't or won't be moved.

Just a suggestion,

mike


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 Post subject: Atemi
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2001 12:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 11
Location: PDX OR USA
Mike:"The point is that they (Atemi) are not really discussed or taught as such to the students, and if so, only in passing."

Mike, this has not been my experience at all. Atemi are vital to our particular piece of the JJ universe and we put a lot of time and information into them.

I have noticed that both aikido and judo often gloss over the atemi, but I haven't seen it in JJ.

As for "what ever works", I usuall translate "ju" as "tactical adaptability". The common sense to use whatever works.

Rory


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