Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:00 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: circle or straight
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2001 8:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Whenever I teach a class using more realistic approaches, I begin to see my students (and me) stay with a very linear approach to defending ourselves. Now I'm not knocking linear movement as it is my belief that any movement is good movement (for the most part), then I begin to look at styles such as Aikido which are much more circular (I'm talking about foot movement).

Worse yet, I've always known that in karate we tend to digress into a linear movement in our sparring. I use we here because I have seen many matches in my lifetime and know that even the quality fighter do the same thing. Just watch any of the video from the recent Uechi tournament. Now this does not mean I think their fighting or talent is inferior, I'm just making an observation.

The question is do we revert to linear(ness) whenever we get into a freestyle situation naturally? Is this biological or psychological?

Any takers here????

mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: circle or straight
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2001 9:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 7
Location: auckland new zealand
Ive noticed the same thing and given it some thought , i keep coming back to one thing ..... simplicity , under pressure we revert to simple direct linear movements , just a thought anyone else ?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: circle or straight
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2001 11:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
The question is do we revert to linear(ness) whenever we get into a freestyle situation naturally? Is this biological or psychological?


Mike, I think more "psychological." The spirit and mentality of an "offensive" fighter is to go straight into the heart of the conflict. This is reflected in "linear" movement. BTW, linear could include angling as well. However, a good defensive fighter will recognize and attempt to incorporate circular movement as well as angular linear movement. Going straight back in face of an on-slaught is perhaps more natural but not the most effective.

david


[This message has been edited by david (edited July 12, 2001).]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: circle or straight
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 270
Location: Washington, DC
Also in dojo type sparring or tournament sparring you can't hit the back of the body -- ergo circling around to the back just means that you have to circle back to the front to give a legal hit.

I'm not knocking this at all -- I need to wake up and go to work the next day along with everyone else.

Ernie Sumpter Sensei shared a wonderful drill that gives you the time to figure out how to use circles this at our last regional.

It was stop-motion sparring. (Note that the striking movements all end with placement at the target -- not actual strikes) Each person gets to do two moves and then they freeze. Then the other person gets to do two moves and they freez. (i.e. move, attack, -- move counter, -- move counter.

It obviously isn't a continous motion flow drill. But is a drill that let's students really see the effects of their countering choices and how uke responds AND it gives everyone time to process and remember what just happened.

Dana


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: circle or straight
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2001 7:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Ok, I can agree with most of the feedback, especially the "stress" factor. Regardless of all the drills that we do however in our dojo and our regular workout regiment, how do we get out of "linear stagnation?" Is it just something that we are going to have to get our asses kicked for awhile until it becomes as second nature as going forward and back?

David,
I agree with the angles as well, however, the question can apply to those as well. How many of us use them on a consistent basis during our jiyu kumite, or randori? I can't think of too many people off hand and I've seen those Brits, Canadians, and South Americans (as well as those of us from the US) fight.

Any suggestions?

mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: circle or straight
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2001 8:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Brockton, MA, USA
Mike:

Uech-ryu kumite drills seem to instill a linear type of movement. Kumite Three, and Two especially.
Kumite One explores the tai sabaki movement to a lesser degree in the first four defensive movements. However, we Uechi-ryu practitioners are taught to never turn to the side and always keep the four limbs in the front so that any one can be utilized in a blocking or striking fashion. This defeats the circular or tai sabaki movement.

When I practice Dan kunite with another student, who is proficient enough in the movements that I do not have to teach them, I will often try to use tai sabaki movements instead of linear movements. These are not always backward movements though.

One Dan Kumite movement I like to try the tai sabaki movement on is defending the nidan geri attack. I use a ridge hand clothes line counter attack to the attackers head. Be very careful when practicing this and make sure your partner knows what you are trying to do.

This thread is a great lead in to what we will be doing. We will moe than likely be forced to practice the circular or tai sabaki movements this Saturday at Khoury's Academy while defending the shoot.

P.S. Will you be there Mike?



------------------
Len


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: circle or straight
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2001 11:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 7
Location: auckland new zealand
this topics got me thnking Image , a couple things im pondering and would ask for the forums valuable input ....

1) Is linear movement ineffective? (do we have to change this...)
2) are linear or cicling more effective at different ranges ? (ex Aikido , got em and hanging on ) , Tournament sparring , typically more range .


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: circle or straight
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30497
Interesting subject.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I've always known that in karate we tend to digress into a linear movement in our sparring.


In tournament play there is an element of stress. In a defensive situation you have a more serious element of stress that tends to revert us to primal instincts, regardless of our training to the contrary.

A classic example of this is controversy of the weaver stance vs. the isosceles stance in combat with a handgun.

The weaver requires motor tasks requiring judgment, concentration, and fine muscle control in tracking, aiming and shifting.

The isosceles finds the shooter with his feet slightly wider than shoulder width, arms stretched out straight to the target, and with an instinctive crouch, the one we were used to look at in the old FBI series on TV.

Westmoreland [1989] examined the two stances in realistically simulated combat scenarios. The majority of the participants were weaver proponents.

The scenarios were divided between spontaneous and non-spontaneous in nature.

96.7% reverted to instinctive isosceles in spontaneous events, and 92.6% reverted to isosceles in non-spontaneous events.

The same results were observed at the Lethal force Institute during combat scenarios I participated in.

Motor behavior research by Westmoreland, indicates that any action requiring precision in target engagement, asymmetrical action of the arms, canting the body in a side stance to the target [such as in turning] __ is more of a fine motor skill nature that tends to deteriorate under stress.

The same conclusion was drawn by examining the behavior of the men in combat situations back in 1927 Shangai by Fairbairn and Sykes.

Westmoreland evaluated the issue of “ an inborn reflex to squarely face the attack” __ A sudden attack in close quarters triggers the primal instinct to square the opponent with our hands and arms extended in front of us and keep facing the opposition rather than turn to the side, as in a tai sabaki movement.

Westmoreland made the strong argument that survival training should be developed from natural response to critical situations..





------------------
Van Canna

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited July 12, 2001).]


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 8 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group