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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2001 5:59 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 201
Location: Milford, MA, US
Sometimes it isn't that the technique doesn't "work". It's that YOU don't work.

There may be some problem with communication. Mike, with all due respect to you as moderator, you appear at times to come across on the slightly arrogant side. For example, you mention Van-sensei, my teacher Walter-sensei, and yourself, as if you are peers.

Van and Walter are well-respected senior practitioners. I think people rightfully resent when (no offense) junior practitioners attempt to portray themselves as their peers.


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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2001 1:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Dominuno,

The purpose, I think, of these forums is to stimulate response and a good debate. I put forth the question of where are the leg sweep techniques in Uechi and you say Sanchin. Great. Tell us where so that we can discuss it.

Joe,

One of the problems with electronic communication is that you don't know or understand the intentions, or the way that I or anyone else is saying something. What may seem arrogant to one is no problem to another because they look past the people and see only the conversation/debate.

For example in your post you say, and I quote: "It's that YOU don't work." Now I could look at that as a personal attack saying I don't work, because I certainly do, or I can look at the conversation and say that you meant "you" was in general terms. Now you may clarify that if you wish, but I choose to look at it that way.

As for me comparing myself to Van Canna Sensei and Walter Sensei as contemporaries, are you nuts? I have ALL the respect in the world for those two practitioner as practitioners (I don't know Walter sensei personally). I would not hesitate to work with either one. And if you notice that when mentioning their names I always add the word "sensei" after them, which is a title of respect. I placed myself in the same sentence only in the aspect of myself as a teacher. Now I could have put Kanbun Uechi sensei's name their as well and it would have meant the same thing.

If you look at this as being arrogant Joe, then I can't do anything about that. All I can say is that there are other forums for you to vent. I certainly hope that you see the comments in the meaning that they were intended, but whatever.

I don't intend to apologize for any of the comments made because they were done with the utmost respect for Van Sensei and Walter Sensei in mind, and if I can't use those who are my seniors as examples, then we might as well cut down the forums to only George Sensei, Van Sensei, and Bill B and Bill G Sensei (sorry if I forgot any other senior) so the rest of us don't forget our place.

Anyway, if you would like to add anything to this discussion, please feel free to, otherwise these particular comment can be better served as a private email or give me a call at my dojo.

Now back to the regularly scheduled program! :-)

Thanks,

mike


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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2001 5:01 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 201
Location: Milford, MA, US
Okay Mike, fair enough, point taken. Thanks for the clarification. My comments were intended to be constructive. We all have our faults. Among my many is the tendency to be overly protective of the people I care about. Of course the "you don't work" was general. I have no desire to vent.

Perhaps on my next visit to my native Massachusetts next month we can get together for a workout.

Regards,
Joe


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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2001 5:03 am 
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Location: Milford, MA, US
Okay Mike, fair enough, point taken. Thanks for the clarification. My comments were intended to be constructive. We all have our faults. Among my many is the tendency to be overly protective of the people I care about. Of course the "you don't work" was general. I have no desire to vent.

Perhaps on my next visit to my native Massachusetts next month we can get together for a workout.

Regards,
Joe


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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2001 5:16 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 201
Location: Milford, MA, US
Yet another fault: Posting the same message twice. Sorry about that. I'm not smart enough to figure out why. Anyway, part of our strength is we have a lot of good people aboard who understand our foibles.

Joe


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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2001 11:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Joe,

You are always welcome at my dojo!

mike


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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2001 3:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 821
Location: Ptld OR USA
Not sure what to say about this thread... at the risk of sounding blase, what's the point?

Mike, you quote the "all paths lead up the same mountain" adage. It applies to Uechi, too. I'm not a Uechi-ka. I'm primarily an infighter (that shadowy area between punchin' and wrasslin') but the mechanics and principles I've seen in traditional karate are perfect for infighting. So I can whole-heartedly agree with Gene- properly trained Uechi will do the deed. Just because some of us have the idea of kuratay as a weak, long distance game of tag (including many students and teachers) doesn't mean it was meant to be that way. And our expectations don't need to force Gene's interpretation into our box. Heck, it might be possible to write a pleasant song in German. (Did anybody get that analogy?)

There was one thing I strongly disagreed with from Gene:
"Of course, one can never grab someone in tight control and kick him." Kidding, right? Oh, man do we have to play at some infighting.

Rory


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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2001 12:20 pm 
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Trust me, Gene. From the "combat hug" you've got at least two crippling kicks and neither require great flexibility. Not counting knees, of course. You've got at least half a dozen knee strikes.

Rory


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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2001 3:00 pm 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Rory,

Thanks for stopping by. It's been a while since I've heard from you :-)

I guess the point of the story is that, in my opinion of course, that you cannot rely on one art solely. And since my karate art/primary art is Uechi that is what I used as an example. I don't believe that the techniques we learn in Uechi serve us in every situation, and thus, cross-training is essential.

Now, what I think Gene was saying, is that there is much of what we need in the Uechi to deal with the above scenario that I gave (I could have given many different situations, but decided on something on everyone's mind). I suppose I can believe that in a way, but I still think that no art is the "One, all encompassing art," that will help me in every situation. I guess that was what my point was.

Do we in Uechi have in-fighting techniques? Of course we do. But how do we train them is the question. I still believe that Uechi, as well many arts still train as if "one shot,one kill" mentality, and I believe that is an extreme detriment to reality based situations. Do you agree?
I have not seen a grappling, "wrasslin" art that does the same.

What was the analogy???

cya,
mike


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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2001 3:04 pm 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Sorry to use the forum as a personal tool, but...


Gene,

email me when you have a chance.

mike


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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2001 3:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 12, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 1688
Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
GenoRPh@aol.com

I'll be catching up on a semester's worth of homework today!

Gene


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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2001 9:27 am 
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Location: Ptld OR USA
Mike-
This is just my opinion, and it goes into the esoteric a bit. I do believe that properly trained any effective art (there are a few arts I can think of that are based on such flawed principles or expectations that they are worthless) can be applied in any situation. It takes a good student and a good teacher... but it's there.

Part of that is that I don't limit the style to the techniques or the forms. It is also the mindset and the strategy. If your style, regardless of the name, teaches you REAL dynamics of violence, REAL strategies and principles for how violence unfolds and how to respond quickly to the clues OR take advantage of any time that you have to plan AND teaches you to ruthlessly execute that plan... it doesn't matter what that style was called.

Flamethrowers weren't big in 17th century Japan, but I'd use a bic lighter and a can of DW40 and credit my sensei for the ability to come up with the plan on the fly.

Maybe I'm spoiled- so far my only exposure to Uechi is from this board. My impression is that these are strategists, not mere practitioners. I get the impression that the students of people like GEM, Van Canna, Gene and many others know how to use their minds and harness their will. That makes them formidable, even if they have never seen a technique outside of zanshen kata.

So, at the risk of being too out there, if you study one art or none at all until you grasp strategy and mindset you will be far more effective than if you just collect technique from many styles.

Rory


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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2001 11:29 am 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Rory,

I totally agree with what you are saying (and you don't sound too far out there), but I guess the question would be is who out there trains like that on a consistant basis? Certainly fewer on the "traditional" arts. The jutsu arts maybe more, but without the constant threat of war or death as in 15th century Japan, what is the incentive for people to train consistantly the way you have described?

BTW, I'm not advocating against it, I'm just stating the obvious.

mike


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 Post subject: Heck with the Uechi
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2001 12:44 pm 
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Mike,

Good that we're on the same page. My experience is different, though. A tested combat art has a history and a traditon of training for strategy and mindset that, in my experience, the modern arts often lack completely.

The "modern combat masters" think that they are the cutting edge of combat knowledge, but most have no experience outside tournaments.

I've never seen a modern art that realistically dealt with and trained zanshen... but I think that that one skill has more to do with me being in one piece than any of the physical skills.

Most modern arts, for one thing, train very hard on a one-on-one, face-to-face, equally armed confrontation, with occassional excursions into more serious situations. They conveniently point out that almost anything else is hopeless and neglect training for it. The traditional arts, in my experience, consider unbeatable odds an unacceptable excuse for not trying and train for it anyway, leading directly into the mindset and strategy that we agree is the most important aspect.

Traditional arts, combat arts, just like the cultures they arose in, have systems for training for mindset. (Though they are lost, probably, in many modern schools). I've seen very, very few modern styles that have any inkling.

Some are getting it. The ones with actual experience are making good suggestions. But they are not inventing anything new. Marc McYoung's advice on scanning a crowd is exactly the same as we are taught in kata. Tony Blauer's SPEAR appears to be exactly the same as an "inside entry", a core move of almost all of the old jujutsu styles.

To summarize- in my opinion,
1) anything that has worked on a battlefield is more likely to work than anything dreamed up in a library.
2) Styles that have survived from the days of actual use will also have systems for preparing their students mentally.
3) These systems could be lost if one instructor in the chain did not understand it...
4) But it is somewhat easier to dig out than in a style that never had it.

Rory


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