Uechi-Ryu.com

I guess in the light of the Sept. 11 tragedies, and finding out how some of the passengers on the PA plane fought the hijackers, I think we can safely assume that the Uechi or whatever karate/emptyhand system that we study is pretty usless in a crowded area such as a plane.

Nows the time to think about the grappling/Jujistu arts as a means of enhancing your already honed skills. Who's to say the situation you'll find yourself in. I'll bet you that those passengers didn't think what was going to happen, happened?!

Just something to ponder.

mike

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mikemurphy:
I guess in the light of the Sept. 11 tragedies, and finding out how some of the passengers on the PA plane fought the hijackers, I think we can safely assume that the Uechi or whatever karate/emptyhand system that we study is pretty usless in a crowded area such as a plane.

Nows the time to think about the grappling/Jujistu arts as a means of enhancing your already honed skills. Who's to say the situation you'll find yourself in. I'll bet you that those passengers didn't think what was going to happen, happened?!

Just something to ponder.

mike<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pondered..
Its not the art but.. the man/woman. The style is just the method of travel, many just can`t drive or are still learning.i.e. myself included.
No reference to the unfortunate on flights as all were casualties of war and heros in every respect



[This message has been edited by candan (edited October 08, 2001).]

Mike Sensei,

I do believe it is a good time to ask ourselves tough questions about the training we do and what we expect from it.

If you want to be effective in many scenarios, cross training with techniques that provide you will the skills and mindset, is absolutely necessary. However when sh_t hits the fan how you prepare yourself with realistic techniques and explosive power will be the key. A very wise sensei told me once “If it doesn’t work you’ll be the first to know.”.

Alan Lowell

Gene,

1. We do know that some of the passengers aboard the plane that crashed in PA tried to fight back. Whether or not they knew some art is irrevelant to a point because we'll never know how close they came to achieving their goal.

2. We don't need data, if we could even get any, for this scenario. That's rediculous, as well as the Iaido example because swords aren't allowed on planes (unless you go from Logan), and all the Iaido I've seen and done does not include empty hand techniques to support the Iaido or Iaijutsu-ka from defending himself in the event he loses the sword. So I really think that is a moot point.

3. Uechi is an in-fighting system and a counter-attack system. Does that mean we can't use it to attack? We both know that is not true. The point is that it would be very hard in those cramped quarters of the plane to use the Uechi we all recognize as Uechi. Don't you think it would rather be more of a grappling situation? That's my point.

4. I would never surmise to say what is the better route taken in a fight. I am by no means perfect, so I certainly wouldn't tell anyone else what to do during a given attack. I could suggest a few things, but ultimately, the situation and the people involved will dictate what each does.


Candan,

Of course it's the person that trains, but if the style of fighting doesn't fit into the scenario, then what? That is why cross-training is so important.

Alan,

That "wise" sensei must be some sort of guy.
Oh brother!

mike

With respect not convinced tight area = grappling. For someone with a strong foundation in grappling arts ..likely yes, grapple in tight quarters. Style fit scenario
really depends on how well you understand your style or better still what you make of it. Uechi is not just the style but the people in it, J. Maloney, A. Rebessa, Van Canna ,B.Bethoney and of course GEM and numourous others, they are cross training within the style. I`m quite certain that each highly skilled Uechi stylist would all attack differently in the same scenario. In tight quarters? I like what Art Rebessa offers..we cross train.

[This message has been edited by candan (edited October 08, 2001).]

I strongly disagree...

We cannot assume that any method of attacking the hijackers would have failed or succeeded. Were there any proficient in Uechi people on the planes? Gojo? Shotokan? Kung Fu? "Tokyo Joe" Kempo? We'll never know.

What we have here is a SINGLE case-report of hijacked passengers fighting back; a sample size of one. We don't have anything else. So, there isn't any other data to support the conclusion.

Even iaido has sword drawing techniques in close quarters, like in a narrow corridor surrounded by two walls, under a cliff or low-outcropping of rocks. There are also iaido techniques when in a crowd of innocents.

Also, all around we hear that Uechi is an "in-fighting system". Sensei Art Rabesa used to anecdotally say that he used to hold tournaments in phone booths. However, in judo/jujitsu/aikido classes we all worry about not knocking heads when we get thrown. Sometimes we worry about it so much that we perform techniques incorrectly as a result. Rarely do we worry so much about this in karate class.

Is the "Uechi-Ryu Infighting" just a myth? Do we now abandon it when it really needed? Can't get much more "in" than a narrow airplane aisle. Or do we really try to explore it?

Which would you think would be utilitarian:

-Countering the knife attack, grabbing a knife-wielding hijacker, throwing him down in the narrow confines that is an airplane aisle and trying to lock him up, all while a second hijacker is bearing down on you, while you are on your knees, or prone on the ground.

-Countering his knife attack, letting him know what it means to get hit and trying to hurt him so bad he can't fight, attempting a disarm, then disengaging if needed to in order to fight the second hijacker bearing down on you, while you are still on your feet.

My take,
Gene

"...The point is that it would be very hard in those cramped quarters of the plane to use the Uechi we all recognize as Uechi."

Again, I strongly disagree.

The Uechi-Ryu that I recognize contains within it mechanically strong techniques that do not need a great build-up of strength in order to deliver powerfully. There is no need to rear back on a front kick, or to pull the hand back to full chamber in order to let one (hopefully) do its job. The Uechi Ryu that I envision on that plane contains maximally powerful moevements coupled with a lot of grabbing and controlling in order to get the job done. I don't see it conflicting with "recognized" Uechi-Ryu. You might not be able to use all of Uechi-Ryu, but you'll be able to use some of Uechi-Ryu. I still maintain that such a scenario could possibly play into Uechi's strenghths as an in-fighting system.

"...Don't you think it would rather be more of a grappling situation?"

You're going to have to define the word, "grappling".

If by grappling you mean grabbing with one hand, controlling the bladed weapon and/or the body position and balance of the opponent, then raining blows from all over with the other hand, then yes I agree. That's practiced every day in the good Uechi schools all over. Both Sensei Canna and Sensei W. Mattson even expounded on that principle for a time last Saturday. That's no-nonsense, close-quarters fighting. In my mind, that's Uechi-Ryu.

If by grappling you mean two-handed grabbing, throwing, sweeping, reaping, wrestling or the like, then no, I say that style of fighting could be a detriment. Too close quarters; the rows and rows of seats might hinder the throw attempts and too big of a chance I might be the one hung up on the seat backs. I just don't see this style of fighting in an airplane aisle.

However, there are all kinds of joint and arm locks we could try, and in that case good training in that regard would be quite appropriate!

It is ridiculous, based on the principles of critical thinking, to make conclusions based on one data point. That's my point, proven time and time again in the crucible of scientific experimentation and discovery.

"...Even iaido has sword drawing techniques in close quarters, like in a narrow corridor surrounded by two walls, under a cliff or low-outcropping of rocks. There are also iaido techniques when in a crowd of innocents."

Consider the spirit of iaido: Come upon your enemy, draw your sword, cut him down with one strike, shake the blood off and then resheath your sword. Simple enough. All Iaido forms are based upon these simple principles, with variations here and there. But Iaido practices these principles in dozens of different physical scenarios-standing, sitting, one opponent, multiple opponents, narrow spaces, low spaces, you name it. The lesson: How to apply the concepts to many different situations.

Does Uechi-Ryu do the same? If I read you correctly, your argument is that Uechi-Ryu has applicability only in certain situations, which can be defined as those situations where "recognized" Uechi-Ryu will work, but not any others. I say that's too limiting and Uechi-Ryu can rise to the occassion with the proper training, which can be integrated into the Uechi-Ryu curriculum. In this aspect, I really like Bill Glasheen's working definition of PanGaiNoon, where he mentions that there's something in Uechi for everyone: power people, pressure point people, Chinese Kempo people, grappling people, and now (most unfortunately) airplane-fighting people.

I still maintain that close-quarter Uechi-Ryu, which contains a fair amount of grabbing, grasping and controlling is an appropraite fighting method for this type of scenario.

Gene

In tight quarters there are very few as effective as Art Rabesa sensei.

He has developed the "one inch strike" to a science. Of course it helps to be built like a pit bull, pressing 400 pounds, and explode like a tomahawk.

The few hapless foes falling prey to Art's vicious power will be haunted by nightmares forever.

If there is a cool, calculated, killer instinct, you have Art Rabesa.

------------------
Van Canna

Got to bite at this one also

I dont think grappling is superior for this situation , actually you show me a fool proof technique to defend against a phsyco with a boxcutter and ill be amazed .

This is the point where its no longer about technique , no longer about style , this is when its all about principals , understanding your body , your movement , your power , and your ability to destroy .

What happens will happen , and im pretty sure youll struggle to label your technique .

multiple armed attackers ? go to the clinch ? , personally i hope not

Gene,

Once again I have to disagree with you.

Does Uechi have innately strong techniques that do not require winding up? Sure! However, are you going to be able to throw that shomen geri on a moving plane, in tight quarters, facing a psycho with a weapon, and be accurate? I would think not. The concepts we derive from our Uechi we certainly would be able to use, but as for some of the common techniques?? This is where I believe the crosstraining is so essential.

Define grappling? Maybe I'll let Joe P. do that. To me, it's like difining justice or integrity. I think it's subjective to what you practice. I consider the Jujitsu arts grappling, Judo, wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, etc. But most importantly, I consider it a practice that I can "control" from all areas of the fight and feel comfortable doing it (i.e. standing, kneeling, on the floor). I heard what Van Canna and Walter Mattson sensei were saying concerning controling, and it is nothing more than I have always said, and any other Uechi instructor worth their salt. The control after a block is PART of Uechi, so this should be nothing new. The fact of the matter is, what about after the control, and the good counter doesn't work the way it "supposed" to in the dojo? Do you then run to Sensei Van Canna and Mattson, or me and ask for better technique to combat your assailant? Too late at that point I think.

As for throwing, I never said anything about throwing. Too cramped to even consider, but I wouldn't rule out sweeping, even in that environment. The kansetsu and Osae waza could be tried, but you or all people should know that they may take just as much space as anything else to perform.

Regarding the Iaido, I don't thinkt that either of us are qualified to discuss the concepts of this art to the point that it makes any difference to this conversation. Too bad John Ray isn't listening in, I'm sure he'd have a great perspective on it.

Lastly, you are saying that my argument is that Uechi is limited in certain situations. I agree. I think you are way too naive if you believe that one art as all the answers, especially in today's world. Uechi-ryu karate do is a fabulous art which gives us so much and with each time that I listen to people like GEM sensei, Thompson sensei, Van Canna sensei, Walter Mattson Sensei, Glasheen sensei, and all the others here or abroad, I realize how little I actually know. But the other thing that I get from them is that they are not presumptuous if the fact that they think that Uechi is the cure-all to every situation. Sometimes, grappling is called for, and sometimes Uechi. Sometimes both! That's what the REAL moral of this story is!


mike

"Define grappling? Maybe I'll let Joe P. do that. To me, it's like difining justice or integrity. I think it's subjective to what you practice."

The definitions of "justice" and "integrity" do exist, just ask my good friend Webster!These definitions are broad enough to allow for adapability to scenarios, but they still have a central theme. Nor are they without controversy.

Subjective to what you practice? Yes. Broad to allow for adaptibiliy? Yes. Undefinable? Not by a long shot.

I think part of the disagreement we have here is that my definiton of "Uechi-Ryu" might be a bit broader than yours. My definition of "grappling" is also no less broad. I also have them overlapping.

"I consider the Jujitsu arts grappling, Judo, wrestling, BJJ, Sambo, etc."

Now, we're getting somewhere!

What different principles do you include in those arts? Striking? Throwing? Joint-locking? Pinning? How broad can you make them?

"As for throwing, I never said anything about throwing"

True, but it was never ruled out (until now), and a possible previous definiton of "grappling" did include such techniques.

"The fact of the matter is, what about after the control, and the good counter doesn't work the way it "supposed" to in the dojo?"

Then you gotta go to Plan B. Maybe you hit him again, really hard. Maybe you dump him on the ground (possibly with you to follow, intentionally or otherwise) or maybe you try a standing lock of some sort. Maybe you try {fill in the blank}. I never implied other-wise, but I also never said to abandon Uechi.

Non-Rhetorical question: What are we doing to see that "the good counter" does work?

By the same token, how are we training so that grappling (however you define it) works?

"Do you then run to Sensei Van Canna and Mattson, or me and ask for better technique to combat your assailant?"

If and when that happens, I hope those people whom I turn to for advice show compassion and respect, and truly try to positively and constructively help me become better.

"...are you going to be able to throw that shomen geri on a moving plane, in tight quarters, facing a psycho with a weapon, and be accurate?"

I would be no less accurate, more or less, facing any other danger. That shomen-geri would be as accurate, precise and effective as any other technique, appropriate to the situation. It would also be no less accurate than your sweep.

The question, again, is how do we train for such a thing? How do we train for danger, in general? Is Uechi-Ryu going to adopt the "on a moving plane, in tight quarters, facing a psycho with a weapon" training scenario? Why or why not?

What training are we doing so that the sweep that you wouldn't rule out (and neither would I) has maximal effect?

We aren't discussing Iaido, per se, but Iaido trains for different scenarios, as I mentioned. Does Uechi-Ryu use the same paradigm in any part of its training? That's my crux.

"I think you are way too naive if you believe that one art as all the answers, especially in today's world."

I'm not naive, I'm learning! Seriously, I never said one art has all the answers. Which is why I take on multiple training opportunities and try to be as comprehensive in my knowledge as I can. But I also never said to abandon one art completely in favor of another.

My premise is that "Uechi-Ryu can rise to the occassion (i.e. fighting in a crowded area such as a plane-Ed) with the proper training." Yes, Uechi-Ryu has its limitations. But those limitations are lessened, but not eliminated when the training is expanded.

"Sometimes, grappling is called for, and sometimes Uechi. Sometimes both! That's what the REAL moral of this story is!"

I thought the moral of the story was that the Uechi or whatever karate/emptyhand system that we study is pretty usless in a crowded area such as a plane?

I would also add the following (in bold) to your quote above , "...Sometimes, grappling is called for, and sometimes Uechi. Sometimes both! And some times, it's one in the same."

I enjoy these on-line debates! It allows for us to show our diverging opinions, without you interrupting me!

Gene

Gene,

The point on the definitions is that although Webster has them in his book, doesn't mean he cornered the market on what the words "really mean." Justice="moral or absolute rightness." What the hell is that? My point exactly!! Any Philosophy 101 course will tell you the same thing. Some words are too subjective or vague to define regardless of what your good buddy has to say about it. The question then is what is YOUR definition of the words: justice, or grappling (keeping with the topic at hand). Will it be a subjective definition???

You say that you have a broad enough interrpretaion of Uechi and grappling that they overlap? Where? You keep saying that your Uechi is all you need (paraphrasing of course), and I say it isn't. I think you have still yet to prove that your Uechi can handle these types of situation adequately.

What principles do I include in the grappling arts I mentioned? The same that I would for any grappling arts. Just different paths up the same mountains. Much the same way that I would look at different arts like Uechi or Goju. How broad can I make them (techniques??). I guess as broad as you want so long as they work. You know old phrase that if it works, it's a great technique. If it doesn't, you'll be the first to know.

So, are you ruling out throwing as a viable technique in the scenario given or not?? You are unclear.

Well, once again unclear. What is your Plan B? Is it Uechi or grappling? Where does you standing armlock fit in to the Uechi? When you are on the floor, how are you using your Uechi instead of the grappling? Very pertinent questions.

Regarding the counter that doesn't work... Our Uechi kata was made with the premise of "one strike one kill." Just look at it. When have you seen grappling where the technique is not continuous? I know that we practice jiyu kumite (freesyle), but even that a person throws two, three techniques and is done with it. That is not real nor feasible in a situation like the one given. You've grappled enough, how many times have you tried a technique, found that you couldn't apply it and went to another and another until you found one? How many times have you done that in your Uechi training?

The comment made with reference about Sensei Van Canna, Mattson, or me was NOT made to be insultive, but to make a point. All those people would constructively help you in your training if you asked. There is no doubt in my mind. If you think otherwise then you don't know those people as well as you think. The point is that you don't have time in the described situation to check with your seniors about a technique that doesn't work. You need to be able to switch from one thing to the next and continue on. Again, I refer you to the above paragraph about continual movement.

I don't know what you are saying about the kick being as accurate as the sweep, because if I'm sweeping someone in a grappling situation, I have my hands on them in tight control. If I'm throwing a shomen geri in tight quarters on a moving plane, I don't think I will have the same accuracy, but you may be different in that aspect. I can only surmise that about me.

Once again, I think the training aspect involves cross-training and getting comfortable moving from one art to the next in a situation. Don't think for an istance that Uechi has all the answers, because it doesn't. That doesn't mean I think Uechi is inferior, just that I don't believe there is a all comprehensive art out there. Do you?

Who said abandon any art? That would be counter-productive, but you have to be able to admit the faults of one art and compare that with the strengths of another and not put all your eggs into one basket.

Care to expand on your "limitations" comment?

You have to read between the lines and look at the Icons ;-)

It's only one and the same when you have practiced long enough so that the arts have entertwined themselves within you to creat a "new art" of sorts. But until then, you are only doing two arts.

I'll go the higher road and not make a comment to your last statement. Remember the rules to the forum.

mike

Gene,

I'm sorry Gene, but the more I look at your posts, the more I see that your implication is that a broad study of Uechi is all you need given a liberal and open study habit. I don't believe that. I think people can look into their Uechi and find anything they want in order to make sense in what they are working. We all know about the secret/hidden moves in kata, right?

The point behind the words you looked up is that it is very hard to define some words adequately, but you seemed to think that Webster did it very well. I guess the 11 definitions on one and 3 on the other doesn't really clear things up. The same for many of the terms we use in the martial arts. Exactly what is grappling??? Mmmm. I don't think Webster is going to be much help after all.

I see some disparity in what you describe as what is in both disciplines. So, not everything you would put in grappling is in Uechi? BTW, where exactly are the sweeps and trips in Uechi? Discounting someone's personal habits in jiyu kumite. I don't see the "lots and lots" of overlapping yet. Sure, there is some, like anything else, but enough to put the two in the same category? Hardly, even in the broadest of senses.

You speak of working to the broadest sense of the arts, but where is that? Sanchin teaches us to work to our limits. Taisabaki in the Nihon Jujitsu teaches me my limits as well. Do I move further than that and forgo form?

Regardless of that, what about the simple mindset of either art. Two totally different sets. Are you into your Uechi mindset or your grappling when you go down to the floor with someone?

I think everyone is happy that you are not going to let terrorists deter you from traveling, but if you don't practice these scenarios, what are you doing?

How are you going to find out whether a techniques is going to work or not? I want to see that training :-)

Murphy Sensei,
You ask where the leg sweeps and throws are in Uechi...Sanchin!

"You keep saying that your Uechi is all you need"

Never, ever, ever did I say that Uechi is all I need. I'm arguing the statement that, "we can safely assume that the Uechi or whatever karate/emptyhand system that we study is pretty usless in a crowded area such as a plane".

My unabridged dictionary has 11 definitions of the word "justice". That same dictionary has three definitions of "integrity", with three synonyms to boot. Rather than use the narrow focus of the word(s), we can use any one definition, or all, or a combination of definitons to convey the meaning of the word(s) we use.

By analogy, rather than use one definition of "Uechi-Ryu", or "grappling", it becomes more preferable to use these arts in their broadest sense. Much more useful.

My grappling includes (not exhaustive) grabbing for control, limiting opponent's body motion, striking, throws, sweeps and trips, choking, joint locking, ground fighting and attacking vulnerable spots on his body.

My Uechi includes (not exhaustive) grabbing for control, limiting opponent's body motion, striking, sweeps and trips, joint locking and attacking vulnerable spots on his body.

Lots and lots of overlap.

"It's only one and the same when you have practiced long enough so that the arts have entertwined themselves within you to creat a 'new art' of sorts. But until then, you are only doing two arts."

Lots and lots of overlap, and the bridge isn't as long as is commonly thought, nor is the delineation so abrupt. Yes, I'm still doing two arts, but there is still much in common with them. They become wholly one in the same when a "new art" is created, but there is still some good intersection between them.

"How broad can I make them (techniques??). I guess as broad as you want so long as they work."

What I've being saying. I say they can (but not always) be very broad and still come under the prenumbra that is Uechi, or that which is grappling.

"I think you have still yet to prove that your Uechi can handle these types of situation adequately."

Let's hope, God willing, that I never have to prove my Uechi can handle these types of situations adequetly. Let's also hope we never have to prove the equally unproven grappling either. But I'm still going to ride the T, and I'm still going to fly.

"So, are you ruling out throwing as a viable technique in the scenario given or not?? "

You can't rule anything out, neither Uechi-Ryu nor grappling. Many of the throws, however, do to space constraints, will fail. Some "recognized" Uechi techniques will also fail, but not necesarily for the same reason.

"You know old phrase that if it works, it's a great technique. If it doesn't, you'll be the first to know."

It's a hell of a time to find out something doesn't work. Let's find out before hand!

"What is your Plan B? Is it Uechi or grappling? "

It's definately Uechi-Ryu. I've got a hold of him, and I'm hitting him again, real hard. It's also definately grappling. I've got a hold of him, and I'm sweeping him on the ground.

But, hold on a minute. Hitting him real hard is also grappling. And sweeping him is also Uechi-Ryu. So, am I doing a "Uechi" strike, or am I doing a "grappling" strike? The answer, of course, is "yes".

"Where does you standing armlock fit in to the Uechi?"

That would be a bit of a stretch, so now we've left the realm of Uechi and moved almost exclusively into the realm of grappling, which I never said we couldn't.

"When you are on the floor, how are you using your Uechi instead of the grappling?"

Let's see. If I poke a finger in someome's eye, while we are on the ground, am I using grappling, or am I using Uechi? Both, for both arts teach that very same concept. If I happen to be on top of someone and I can hit him with an elbow across his face, am I using Uechi or grappling? Both, for both arts teach that very same concept. If I have my hand spread over his face, grabbing his head and pounding it into the floor, am I using Uechi or grappling? Both, for both arts teach that very same concept. If I find his testicles and squeeze, is that Uechi or grappling? Both, for both arts teach that very same concept.

Now, of course the majority of ground fighting is in the realm of grappling. Hence why we train for it (which I never said we shouldn't).

"Our Uechi kata was made with the premise of 'one strike one kill'."

Our Uechi kata also contains multiple attack assaults as well, possibly specifically for "the counter that doesn't work" scenario.

There never was any doubt in my mind that the aforementioned people would always help, if asked.

Of course, one can never grab someone in tight control and kick him.

"Care to expand on your 'limitations' comment?"

Yes, thank you.

On the mundane: Uechi-Ryu has kata, which are excellent training tools. But, kata has limitations. It lacks the tactile feedback that is touching and striking upon another. So, we add exercises like bunkai and prearranged kumite. However, even those excercises suffer from a limitation in that they do not allow free attacks and a bit of unpredictability that comes from having a opponent standing in front of you, with you unknowning as to from where or when he will launch the next attack. So, we have free-style fighting.

So, we identified some limitations to karate training, and then developed training to strenghten, and therefore lessen those limitations. Does Uechi-Ryu always work when someone is standing in front of you, with you unknowning as to from where or when he will launch the next attack? No. But, you can't completely discount its utility, either. Which is what we are both saying.

In my mind a big limitation in Uechi-Ryu is a failure in the training, both physical and mental.

When we train in Uechi-Ryu, we do these excercises that are kata, bunkai, kumites, sparring and a few other minor odds and ends thrown in for good measure. But as soon as we put a physical barrier on our training and say that knife defense or multiple attackers is not part of Uechi-Ryu, then we've also added a mental limitation also. Whenever we look at the Tueller drill, or the "night-of-the-living-dead" drill and say "That's not Uechi!", then we've further entrenched another limitation to our training. Whenever we discount the "1/4 second timing" drills, or the TC power-principles, or Dave Moy's flow drills, or the idea of bunkais with takedowns and finishes, then we've limited our training. The persons who espouse these training tools (you inclduded) recognized a limitation and seek to lessen it as much as possible. When we discount these training tools, we've physically limited our training, but we've also mentally limited our training. I find this sad, and extremely frustrating. One can study kata very deeply, and still only learn narrowly. However, one can study kata in a very deep fashion, and still end up with a very broad knowledge base. Training should not be limited to such a point that it becomes narrowly focused. Some training tools can be narrowly focused, but overall they must have an eye towards developing and maintaining broad, but very deep knowledge.

Uechi doesn't have all the answers, but when it does, it makes sense to use it.


Gene


[This message has been edited by Gene DeMambro (edited October 11, 2001).]