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 Post subject: Hold down escapes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2001 2:56 am 
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Location: Valhalla
Grapplers,
Just wondering what escape methods would be for this hold down, naturally no one should get in it. http://www.judoinfo.com/images/osaekomi/kami_shiho_gatame.gif
Hope that link works.
In Judo and I believe in Jujitsu it is called kami shiho gatame.
Not sure what the hold down is called in BJJ but I know I did it at Joe P's dojo.
So how do you escape it?
I got 30 seconds in Judo before I lose the match.
F.Channell


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 Post subject: Hold down escapes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2001 8:31 am 
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Location: Ptld OR USA
F Channell-
Staying within Judo rules, the most common escapes are to work your arms to the inside, use them to create space and then ebi or shrimp to get the elbow and knee on one side in contact with the ground, pinion the opponents arm and roll;

Or, work your body to the side to lever away his grip (unless he can stay mobile on top) and if he stays mobile, to set up a rhythm that works against his mobility, ie, slide your legs to the left and when he compensates, slide hard to the right.

I'm not sure my favorite is legal. I loosen his belt with my hands, throw my legs up until I can get a foot into the loop and lift him off. The refs always wind up scratching their heads but letting it go. I think it's just a bit too wierd to have a rule against.

Rory


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 Post subject: Hold down escapes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2001 12:50 am 
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Rory,
That belt trick sounds interesting, I'll try that out. I don't remember any rules about the belt other than wrapping the arm completely for a keylock.
The other thing I'm trying is lining up my body with their leg in a straight line and capturing their arm and rolling them over. Naturally if they stay mobile it might not work.
f.


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 Post subject: Hold down escapes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2001 1:59 am 
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Location: Brockton, MA 02401
Try this one. Get both of your arms to one side. What I mean is, if your arms are caught on the outsides, on both sides, then you can't move your shoulders.

So, migrate one arm all the way to the other side. Once this is done it is posible to turn the hips in the SAME direction.

Now you can get to you knees by rolling to your stomach.

As you are getting to your knees it is a good idea to catch his leg with your arms so that he doesn't get to your back.

Hope this helps;

Joe P.

[This message has been edited by Joe Sullivan (edited October 31, 2001).]


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 Post subject: Hold down escapes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2001 3:04 am 
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Joe,
It's really tough to roll because of the v shape the legs are in. Also that grip on the belt makes it tough to roll, I'm not sure what you mean by moving the arm to one side. Is that across the chest and then bridging to that side? You'll have to show me friday what you mean.

We can turtle out in judo and give them our back as long as we guard the choke closely. Most of the pins have to have the guy controlled on his back.
They usually hook in and try to turn over and sneak in the choke along the way. So far No one has ever got the choke in on me in competition, luckily.
f.

[This message has been edited by f.Channell (edited October 31, 2001).]


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 Post subject: Hold down escapes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2001 4:27 am 
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F-

Joe's technique is the same as my first one with the judo jargon removed. Thanks, Joe.

Rory


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 Post subject: Hold down escapes
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2001 10:45 am 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Fred,

Kamishiho Gatame is a great control move in the sport application, but not really practical (IMHO) in a true jujitsu sense. What do I mean? Well, in that picture, the assailant is not using his body weight to smother the person on the ground, thus, he is really just imobilizing him.

Now, from a Jujitsu perspective, I would use the same movement with my legs as Joe and Rory perscribe, but I would add the ever fabulous, but oft forgotten, ATEMI (aka, distraction). The person on the bottom of that piture has both hands/arms free to reach his opponants head. I would call that free game at this point. Constant pressure to any of the millions of pressure points on the head would suffice to get them to move. You also have your chin to stick into his sternum. Once you get him on the move, then curl your legs, turn your hips and shrimp out of that position.

I would be more worried with someone who got me into Yoko gatame and was able to hold it.

mike


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 Post subject: Hold down escapes
PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2001 3:27 am 
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Mike,
Sure I know it's not a great street move unless you have a drunk friend acting like a jerk and want to immobilize him.
I already have to suppress those shokens quite a bit, as well as foot sweeps that sometimes come out as roundhouse kicks!
But I'm sure you have been there as well.
I was looking for escapes in the sport sense.
Joe P. taught me a great arm lock out of the push that will eventually come when on top.
This hold down does seem to be a favorite in competition. I sometimes get in it as a follow up from yoko shiho gatame if you start to lose it.
Fred


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 Post subject: Hold down escapes
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2001 6:38 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2001 6:01 am
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Location: MI/US
One movement that I have learned is to post your hands on his hips or belt. Keep your elbows close to your body as he has a few subs from that spot. Put both of your legs together and lie them flat on the ground. then lift up your legs straight in the air so you are in a L shape on your back. Now start rocking your legs from side to side while they remain straight. After you get enough momentum ( after two or three bounces of the legs) you should create a small space between his chest and yours, so push against his hips as your legs are comming down to hit the floor. This should get you about 1/4 to 1/2 out from under him. Now you will need to start shrimping or roll to your stomach whatever you are comfortable with. K


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