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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2001 11:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Here is an interesting question for people to ponder over. At seminars or classes, do you prefer learning a concept(s) or technique(s)?

I know what I like, but I'm going to defer until I hear from some of you. Teachers....don't be shy. Tell us what you prefer teaching as well.

mike


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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2001 1:58 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida
I believe we discuss concepts here on the forums. However, in classes, students probably expect a more "physical" workout, which would entail techniques.

An affective teacher will probably combine the "concept" along with the technique. . . which is one of the benefits of an actual class versus reading a "how-to" book.

------------------
GEM

[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited November 29, 2001).]


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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2001 7:12 pm 
Hello , was commening on this in another thread , personally i prefer concepts , of course theve got to be shown via some exzamples .

at the seminars ive been to theres such diversication of styles methods etc , concepts seem to be the middle ground and you can cover more groung in my opinion .

Once the iea is seeded you can work on the techniques yourself , If you dont understand why your doing it no amount of practice will make it right .

just my opinion


Stryke


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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2001 8:55 am 
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With limited time or contact, eg a seminar, I prefer it to focus on one concept or a few related concepts. If you can get the participants to play with the idea until they are improvising, they will have something to take home to their own personal style.

Wally Jay is excellent at this- each of the principles of SCJJ can be applied to any art and usually, in his seminars, people understand the why well enough that they can use it.

Rory


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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2001 1:56 pm 
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I prefer to learn techniques. For me, I can distill the concept (i.e., the generality) from the application of a particular technique. I find it less satisfying if I am presented with an esoteric concept that may or may not have an application. Often, the concepts are presented as principles, which are based upon faulty logic or incorrect assumptions. In other words: "Show me; don't tell me..."

Rich


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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2001 2:57 pm 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Good points all.

Part of me says that I agree with Rich, as I'm kind of the "Doubting Thomas" type. I want to be shown the technique, and I want it shown to me. That way, I know it works or doesn't. For example, there have been a number of seminars in my life I can look back and have volunteered or have been chosen as the example to prove a technique works or not. I'm still hurting from Bob Campbell sensei's demonstrations on me regarding the use of the shoken. I have allowed Sensei Sato to choke me out (well almost), etc., etc., etc. All these people proved their points without going into concept-mode. I also remember getting in line to see if Rich Mooney's mystical chi seminar at one summer camp a few years ago could really move me (which it didn't).

Anyway, I think I'm intelligent enough to figure out what the concept is and how I would apply it to my training or teaching. That's just me though.

On the other hand, there are times when someone is talking a concept that I have no idea about, which if they just taught techniques, would probably not have made a dent on me.

I was pretty definate on one way or the other, but once again, I think it may depend on the teacher. If it is a good instructor, then they can make the concept worth listening to. If they are not, then it doesn't really matter what they are teaching now does it?

I'd still love to hear what others say.

mike


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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2001 1:54 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 15, 1999 6:01 am
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Location: Valrico, Florida, USA
For me...I'd like about 70-30 or 80-20, balance along the lines of Technique-Concept...
Basically I'm a "Teach me how to do it" kinda guy...BUT (!!!) If you don't also share with me the Concepts and the WHY of what I'm trying to learn, I'll lose interest and discount what techniques I've been taught... Image
If I can't see the relevancy then I don't retain the material. That may be why I have a hard time with independant study types of learning...that and I NEED to hear/see/do it...just reading it is of very small value to me!

------------------
Rick Liebespach
Brown Belt (Uechi-Ryu)
(Phone # upon request)
RickLiebespach@BigFoot.com
Brandon, FL
Brandon Okinawian Karate
Master Joe Guidry, Sensei


[This message has been edited by RickLiebespach (edited November 30, 2001).]


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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2001 4:08 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA, USA
Trying to teach someone a concept without giving them some hands-on experience actually putting it into practice is rather useless, IMHO. Techniques arise from the application of a concept to a particular situation. Teaching the concept without the application...well, it doesn't work for me. I need both. As Rick stated previously, teach me the techniques, and then explain to me why they work. If you try to explain the why first, I will be lost. If you teach me the techniques without the why, I may never understand them, and will either do them incorrectly or cease doing them at all. Teach me the techniques, then explain why they work, and I will have a real shot at understanding.


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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2001 4:50 am 
We are all different no?

We exhibit many different learning styles,some are tactile,learn best by doing.

Some of us are visual and learn quickly through observation.

Some of require lots of imformation and time to sort through it.

Because of these different learning styles I would suggest that a well balanced seminar that offers concept, a chance to practice technique,and some feedback on the whys and why nots might be most effective if the goal is to teach many folk.

Laird


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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2001 8:51 am 
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I don't think it's possible to teach just a concept or just techniques. The choice is how the class is formatted.

Example- There are literally scores of variations on the elbow lock, some very complex and fancy, some simple and direct. If a seminar is set up so that you are given two dozen elbow locks, you will remember 5-7 accurately. If the seminar sets up with an overview of hinge joint anatomy and how leverage is applied, it becomes clear that these scores of techniques are all variations on one type of action. The participants play with the principle, work variations supplied by the instructor and also make up their own. When they go back to their own schools, they only need to remember two principles and they can create and experiment with hundreds of techniques, far more than they could remember if they were only working technique.

Rory


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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2001 11:13 am 
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Let me ask this question then. What if we throw the "Interest Factor" in the equation. Do people get bored listening to someone lecture on concept for most of the seminar because as sensei Mattson said, students want or expect a "physical" workout?

I'm not saying anything about the lecture except; all I'm saying is, do people's attention span (except for the rare few) waver after a little while during this kind of workout?

mike


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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2001 6:49 pm 
Personally this comes down to the teacher , it just goes to show not everyone can hold a seminar , I feel pretty dissapointed if i leave a seminar without a few new ideas or concepts, maybe principles is a better word , why go to allthe trouble of attending a seminar just to get a workout .

you might feel great afterwards but wouldnt you be better of at the gym or your dojo .


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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2001 8:10 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mikemurphy:
Let me ask this question then. What if we throw the "Interest Factor" in the equation. Do people get bored listening to someone lecture on concept for most of the seminar because as sensei Mattson said, students want or expect a "physical" workout?

mike
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Mike- I can't relate to this. When I do it, the "talk-talk" is maybe twenty minutes out of a four hour class, with constant reinforcement during the mat time. That is also the standard for seminars I've attended.

The only exceptions I've been exposed to were the seminars where the practitioner needed to set up a good con to get the techniques to work. Image

Are you setting up a straw man argument just to get the debate going? Sneaky, sneaky man. Good jujutsu.

Rory


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 Post subject: Concept vs. Technique
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2001 11:19 am 
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Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Rory,

I wish I was that sneaky sometimes ;-)

Unfortunately, I've been to many a seminar where you have listened to somebody for an hour +. I'll tell you something, it doesn't matter how good they are, if I have my gi on, I want to do something. I think it is awful to allow those in attendance sit and atrophy while time is "awastin'" Know what I mean?

You my friend, are a lucky individual never having been caught in one of these types of seminars.

mike


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