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 Post subject: One up/One down
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2002 7:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 284
Location: Mansfield, MA USA
With the advent of the popularity and success of Gracie Ju Jitsu and NHB tournaments, there has been a lot written about the importance of making grappling part of one’s martial arts repertoire. As a student of both Uechi and Nihon Ju Jitsu, I appreciate and agree with the importance of grappling. That being said, in a real confrontation, I am not real anxious to go to the floor. In a situation where my attacker may be with one or more friends, going to the ground may well get me kicked to death no matter how great a choke or lock I do on the first guy.

In the Ju Jitsu katas and exercises we practice, more often than not the goal is to put an attacker/opponent on the ground while keeping one’s feet. Ideally, I can hold down and control a prone opponent fairly easily while still able to discourage, or if necessary engage, another attacker. This is also practiced with “down” versions of Uechi bunkai.

Is this something other schools give much thought or practice to? What do you guys think?

Sincerely,

Norm Abrahamson


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 Post subject: One up/One down
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2002 10:49 pm 
Hi , this is the foremost thing in my mind in aplication at the moment , This to me is where the fights at , Having said that although i can take him down comfortably in the dojo in real life i think id go down as well , in the heat of the struggle with them hanging on i cant see there grip braking , at least i dont think mine would , But with any luck I`d be the one controlling the takedown and it would be hard and if i go id just be a 200 pound weight smashing on top of them .


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 Post subject: One up/One down
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2002 12:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 821
Location: Ptld OR USA
Norm-
Sosui****su-ryu (one of the styles that the profanity editor usually slices!) is heavy on the same concept- take your opponent down, primarily so that he is easier to stab. Most of our takedowns end with a badly crippled uke being knelt on with the knee in a place of great to paralyzing discomfort, as the weapon is stripped from uke's hands and driven into the base of his spine.

I've had the opportunity to use these positions on the job. They work very well and usually keep your hands free for disarming, cuffing or possibly engaging a second threat.

In my classes we also work on being the one knocked down. The "empi" (shrimp) exercise modifies well to using the legs to keep a standing attacker at range. We also practice closing on the kick and locking or pulling the knee to bring the threat down.

Rory


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 Post subject: One up/One down
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2002 2:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 468
Location: Marlboro,MA US
Afternoon,

I posted this on another thread also. Being an absolute baby-san in grappling, the key thing that I am taking out of it now is knowing what to expect! Even if I can't perform the techniques I can recognize them and possibly spoil them. That is a huge win for me. As I get better I get more confident with my KARATE. Knowing that all is not lost if a guy clinches me frees me up to really strike on the inside...

later


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 Post subject: One up/One down
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2002 2:55 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Norm,

I don't think anyone wants to be on the ground with several attackers attempting to pound the bajeebers out of him/her. In that instance, I personally would be using the old legs to get the hell out of that situation as fast as possible; however, we are not always granted that luxury as you well know.

I would like to think that with the advent of grappling being added to other Uechi curriculum, then people will investigate and experiment, much like we do, in different scenarios. That's where we come up with some of our best answers to questions.

I don't know of any art in particular which has multiple attackers from the floor as a regular part of their particular style, although it would be interesting to see.

mike


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 Post subject: One up/One down
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2002 7:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 6:01 am
Posts: 284
Location: Mansfield, MA USA
The point that I'm trying to make is, that although grappling and groundwork is important, I think some people are too anxious to go to the ground. If I am in a "street" situation, there are too many unknowns for me to go to the floor if I don't have to. A lot of us saw the video from the street fight posted on one of Van Sensei's threads. Once the victim hit the ground, he was a kicking pad. Even if he took one guy down with him, he would have been kicked apart. I think it is important to specifically work on putting down an opponent and immobolizing him while still keeping your feet.

Norm Abrahamson


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 Post subject: One up/One down
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 11:12 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Norm,

I agree! I would rather stay on my feet if at all possible and immobilize from there. But there are people who are extremely comfortable on the ground and would probably not mind going there immediately.

The tape is a good and bad example. It is good because it shows an obviously "real" situation, but bad because the person getting the crap kicked out of him was not trained (at least there were no signs to indicate he was). So could a "trained" person who is comfortable on the ground have faired better? I would like to think so, but I don't know.

mike


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 Post subject: One up/One down
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2002 11:42 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
If I am in a "street" situation, there are too many unknowns for me to go to the floor if I don't have to. A lot of us saw the video from the street fight posted on one of Van Sensei's threads. Once the victim hit the ground, he was a kicking pad.


I am not a grappler so I would prefer never to go to the ground. However, I agree one should train or have an idea of what that may be like. I have had to go to the ground at work, only because I can't strike.

If I were a proficient grappler I would still strive to learn some stand up fighting (and sprinting). Going to the ground would be great in an "one on one." Going to the ground as a first choice with more than one opponent or the possibility of more than one... Well, being "kicking pad" ain't the worse possibility. Think 2"X4" across the body, a shovel or a brick to the head, quick multiple shanks to the body. Seen and have heard of these.

david


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