ukemi or counter?

Reopened!!! The jujitsu forum will focus on traditional and non-traditional Jujitsu/grappling arts.

Moderator: J. Sheldon

ukemi or counter?

Postby mikemurphy » Wed May 08, 2002 1:29 pm

Here's a question to ponder. When getting thrown in any particular manner, whether it be for sport or for real, so you think proper breakfall, so as not to get hurt, or do you think of a counter using the energy of the throw and the person's commitment to the technique?

Love to hear your responses!

mike
mikemurphy
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891

ukemi or counter?

Postby f.Channell » Thu May 09, 2002 1:26 am

Mike,
Depending on the situation, if in any kind of contest be it randori or tournament I would counter. I have a much higher success rate off of a counter. After the initial throw is attempted however they are all counters to counters anyway.
My last good counter was a Osoto Gari following up a failed shoulder throw, as he was backing out I came in and got him, and followed with Kesa Gatame.
If it was for real I would hope I would try to counter, if unsuccessful try to land in a position to defend well.
I think Ukemi when practicing throw for throw, Kata, or what we call fit ins.
Fred
User avatar
f.Channell
 
Posts: 3542
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Valhalla

ukemi or counter?

Postby f.Channell » Fri May 10, 2002 2:22 am

Jim,
Wise words from Mr. Pedro. So Uechi guys don't need Ukemi either, just don't go down!
My instructor asked me if my knees would be okay for this weekends tournament. I said I wasn't going down. Then I came home and read your post, I love it. Problem is my strained ligament in my calf, got that running training for the tournament.
One thing to another. I hate getting old.
Fred
User avatar
f.Channell
 
Posts: 3542
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Valhalla

ukemi or counter?

Postby Troll Under the Bridge » Fri May 10, 2002 5:28 am

Interesting question. I haven't thought about it before. My first thought on it:

I am a large guy. I would rather protect myself from injury during the throw, then go from there.

I will keep this question in mind during the next session and try to give you a better response. Also I am relatively new (2.5 yrs), so take my input for what its worth.
Troll Under the Bridge
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Yakima WA USA

ukemi or counter?

Postby JDeLuca » Fri May 10, 2002 5:31 am

Mike

I agree with Fred, I use ukemi (slapping out) only when practicing throw for throw.
If the opportunity arises for a counter while still standing great, other than that options include rolling through the throw to gain the top position, pulling to guard to get a safe bottom position or doing anything you can to improve your position. Of course the option you choose depends on the arena that you are performing.

Judo players never want to slap out or roll through a throw as it will constitute an ippon and they will lose the match. Instead you see them become acrobatic almost catlike in turning their body to not land on their back.

High school and college wrestlers will often roll through throws as it is the finishing postion that will determine points.

Jiujitsu players will often pull to guard if they feel they are going to be taken down and will look for sweeps and reversals while on the ground

I was once told by Mr. Pedro (Jim Sr.) that he never taught his boys how to fall. He didn't want them to get good at falling.



------------------
J Deluca
JDeLuca
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Billerica Ma

ukemi or counter?

Postby RA Miller » Fri May 10, 2002 8:17 am

Mike-
I don't think I understood this question the same way.

In sport or play, I make the prettiest ukemi I can. It's a compliment for a good technique, especially if a student threw me. It's also safer, and I don't want any students thinking the instructor is too egotistic to take a fall. Ego and fear of failure are two of the big enemies for beginners, and I'll have no credibility if I show both by ruining an ukemi to save an ippon.

Quote: "a counter using the energy of the throw" brings one class of technique to mind, the counterthrows from the air. These are devestating- one or both knees are damaged and usually the collarbone, AC joint or neck on impact. There are only a handful of people locally I can work these with, but they are the best solution, IMO, fo combat.

Rory
User avatar
RA Miller
 
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Location: Ptld OR USA

ukemi or counter?

Postby JDeLuca » Fri May 10, 2002 1:22 pm

Fred
Good luck on your tournament this weekend. Go represent us forty somethings. Let me know how you made out.

Rory
I can see your point about ukemi in light play that is both noncompetitive and below full speed. But in sport or in competitive practice why would you make a pretty ukemi. Regardless of rules it puts you in a poor position.
Your definitely right that ego and fear of failure are enemies, but not only for the beginer but for more advanced. I give people credit as soon as the step on the mat with the intent of training hard and improving. To get thrown , choked, or locked out can not effect a person's credibility. Only a person that ducks an opponent or training partner loses credibility.

PS I read Van's thread on prison and correctional officers. Take it from the source. An inmate, or was that convict, that has served many years in prison. Not much credibility.

------------------
J Deluca
JDeLuca
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Billerica Ma

ukemi or counter?

Postby RA Miller » Fri May 10, 2002 2:48 pm

J-
Corny as it sounds, I make a pretty ukemi in competition because good sportsmanship is good sportsmanship, whether it is in the context of a tournament or friendly in-house randori.

I agree that getting thrown, choked or locked out doesn't affect credibility. I do believe that manipulating the rules; whether it is untying your own belt so that the ref will break it up to get out of a strangle, or doing a poor ukemi (which increases the risk of injury) so that your opponent doesn't get a full point for a good throw; is wrong.

If thrown in combat or suddenly falling down the stairs, you will do a good ukemi to prevent injury. Practicing doing bad ukemi to deny points is poor training for combat, though that is what shiai is supposed to prepare one for.

Rory
User avatar
RA Miller
 
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2000 6:01 am
Location: Ptld OR USA

ukemi or counter?

Postby JDeLuca » Sat May 11, 2002 5:05 am

Rory

Good sportsmanship should always be at the top of the list while an athlete is training or competing. I guess I don't understand the role of falling well and sportsmanship. How does preventing a full point (within the rules of course) violate good sport. If slapping out helps prevent an injury then by all means do it. But if the opportunity to improve position arises it should be taken.
We must be thinking along totally different lines on this topic

------------------
J Deluca
JDeLuca
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Billerica Ma

ukemi or counter?

Postby f.Channell » Mon May 13, 2002 1:18 am

Rory,
At my judo tournament this weekend I heard at least one sensei telling his students not to slap the mat. This causes the judges attention and could be cause for an ippon, game over. Perhaps you do a different art where this wouldn't happen?
Beyond that whenever I hit the ground hard and theres no mat or I go off, my hand feels like a tuning fork. Hurts for hours.
Jim,
Tough weekend, almost got in a nice choke from the ground, and I had a nice hold down going but lost it. I was the lightest one there, and the oldest by a good ten years. Maybe I'll do better in the Bay State Games. My 7 year old took 3rd, so that was good.
Also met some guys from the Olympic Team from Ukbekistan or some such country. They were excellent, after doing fit-ins with that level your eyes are open.
f.
User avatar
f.Channell
 
Posts: 3542
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Valhalla

ukemi or counter?

Postby JDeLuca » Mon May 13, 2002 3:48 pm

Fred

Giving up age and weight is a tough combination. In the context of a timed match a missed choke or hold down can be the only opportunity to score.

Congrats to your son on his placing. He must have been thrilled.

------------------
J Deluca
JDeLuca
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Billerica Ma


Return to Jujitsu/Grappling Arts

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests