Beyond the bounce

This is Dave Young's Forum.
Can you really bridge the gap between reality and training? Between traditional karate and real world encounters? Absolutely, we will address in this forum why this transition is necessary and critical for survival, and provide suggestions on how to do this correctly. So come in and feel welcomed, but leave your egos at the door!
Valkenar
Posts: 1316
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2000 6:01 am
Location: Somerville, ma.

Post by Valkenar »

Bill:
religious belief against homosexual acts is very different from a religious belief against homosexuals. Bringing race into this shows that you do not understand this important distinction.
Yes, it is different to some extent, but I still feel it is justified. The way your argument comes across to me is that it's fine for Bush to be accepting of discrimination against homosexuals, because some people have a religious objection to homosexual acts. And I disagree with that. But you said you want to drop it, so let it drop if you wish.


Rich:

I'm sure you're familiar with the Winter Soldier investigation, yes? Well that's one.

Here's a few books from amazon, though I haven't read them. The books I have read are at home and I don't know the titles offhand.

Vietnam Inc.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

Nuremberg and Vietnam: An American Tragedy.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846

The Turning: A History of Vietnam Veterans Against the War
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846

And and an article
http://www.g0lem.net/PhpWiki/index.php/ ... Atrocities
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Bill Glasheen
Posts: 17299
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY

Post by Bill Glasheen »

The way your argument comes across to me is that it's fine for Bush to be accepting of discrimination against homosexuals, because some people have a religious objection to homosexual acts.
Thank you. And that understanding would be false. I don't believe that, and I don't ever believe Bush has stated that. It is immoral.

At least we have the "issue" stated.

I think where Ian and Gene were coming from is that Bush's FMA intentionally appealed to those who would discriminate against homosexuals. That is arguable, but I don't buy it.

I just want to be certain people know that protecting friendships is more important than (my) being right here. To me, this is just an academic exercise. To others, it cuts to their very core. I know...

- Bill
IJ
Posts: 2757
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:16 am
Location: Boston
Contact:

Post by IJ »

Bill and I obviously have some strong opinions but we go way back and I'm sure we can handle some debate as well as a spicy dan kumite... however, we're getting nowhere with the FMA question. I will end my commentary on the matter with this:

Of COURSE the law is discriminatory. That's it's whole purpose. So of course it appeals to people who would discriminate. That's not something to debate, it's almost a matter of definitions. Now Bush and Co have yet to present any legitimate state interest in preventing same sex couples from marying (this is similar to the services, who've never claimed that same sexers make bad soldiers--just that the other soldiers might not like them). I've read his speeches and statements and he only refers to the need to fight activist judges and to maintain the current definition of marriage.

Here's an example: "Ages of experience have taught humanity that the commitment of a husband and wife to love and to serve one another promotes the welfare of children and the stability of society." But how in heck does gay marriage threaten the nongay marriage?

There's no data or logic that suggests same sex marriage poses a threat to squat. In the absence of any state reason for the ban, and in the middle of an election year, when a president must appeal to his base of religious conservatives who want federal law to discriminate against same sex couples, yes, the thing is obviously intentionally pitched to his evangelical base as an election issue. A wedge in America for political gain. If you don't want to see that, you won't, but all you have to do is look.
--Ian
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