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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:38 pm 
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Hi Dana and all.

I have had some parents tell me their child tried to sign up and they didn't want to bother with the form, faxing and all that.
Problem is there are many forums kids can sign up at which probably don't offer any protection or control to the parents.
Uechi can offer a great service to their own "young" by having a forum where they can safely post and talk.
Possibly when under 18 sign up they are given a password and all but can only sign on to that forum.
As a parent I monitor what my child visits, but I also know since I have them program my cell phone that they are also more savy with technology than I.
In the case of the other forums I keep my kid from them not only because of the mature nature of them, but also because they spend so much time questioning the effectiveness of the art. The only way a child could use these skills is with absolute belief in their effectiveness.

The kids forum is a great vehicle for kids to discuss the art, find partners for tournaments and keep each other excited about training. Once safe and secure from the other forums I'm sure it will grow.
Perhaps the links to the other forum pages could be omitted from that page for starters.
Maybe a URL for uechi kids could be created for kids to link directly to it, bypassing the homepage and other forum links.

I wouldn't like to see folks feeling they can't discuss openly and use humor on the forums.

F.

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 Post subject: Re: Tony...
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:27 pm 
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gmattson wrote:
... how would you stop someone like "chirp" who I just banned on this forum on another thread (oil from garbage)? He/she is smart enough to get around all the filters and bans I put on the site and pops up at least once a month.


Thank you GEM-Sensei... I just got on and see that "chirp" finally made it to tough issues. :evil: Grrrrrrr....

While there has been some "creative" spelling of certain words here, I've had enough complaints from folks about censorship that I've tried to step back and let people make their points. However, I've also tried to keep things civil between posters. I may have missed something, but with very few exceptions, this forum attempts to keep discussions and debates to the topic at hand. Debating one's position has so much more credibility when the foul language is kept to a minimum.

Having said that, I recently was around a group of 10-12 year olds that could hold their own cussing against anyone I know posting here! :oops:

I maintain my feeling that foul language should be minimized, especially here and even using "creative" spelling, but are we kidding ourselves by thinking many, if not most, of these young folks don't know what this language is? :?

Just pondering...


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 6:37 pm 
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Yeah kids can curse up a storm, so can I. But it is not how I behave in public when children I don't know are around. Then, as a responsible adult, I model the kind of behavior I think is appropriate in public when kids I don't know are around. Just like Tony makes sure his nieces and nephews can't view adults-only sites on his computer when they come over because he thinks it is in their best interest not to.

Now what I think is appropriate is going to be different than what other folks think is appropriate.

I think the idea of having a separate URL for the kids page is a good idea. There used to be one awhile back before the forums really took off. However even if we have a separate page for kids 15 and under that still leaves the question open of being clear that since these forums are linked to from the main page of Eastern Arts (as they should be) is anything we need to say about them?

So how do we think of these forums? A private place to discuss without filters where we can be as rude and as profane as we feel, a semi-private place where we only worry about common decency between adults (18 & over), a public forum for debate where we, for the most part, "play nice" and consciously avoid serious profane language, libel, and lascivious content? (It is libel and not slander because this is a "published" or "broadcast" medium - correct me if I'm wrong please legal folks)


Last edited by Dana Sheets on Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:31 pm 
Well, you all are just too Goody-Goody for me. I guess i'll leave you all to your tea and crumpets and stiff upper-lips and get back to doing my homework. I'm not much for waltzing in the victorian ballroom.

Maybe one day i'll just start my own Uechi Ryu forum for Subhumans and Renegades and the like.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:49 pm 
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"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
Elanor Roosevelt.

Tony I am not saying one way is superior to the other. I'm simply asking the question of what folks want the environments of these forums to be. Because these forums, like it or not, care or not, are a public face of Uechi.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:18 pm 
Image

With all this wine I thought a little cheese might be nice.

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:41 pm 
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I think there's reason to have things here that people might not want their kids seeing (E.G. frank discussions of rape and defense). I don't know of a good way to clearly mark things, however. So ultimately I think it's just a question of whether a decision is made to make the site kid-safe, or not. Personally I am inclined to say that it should not asserted as kid-safe, because there might be things to talk about that would invalidate that claim.

On the other hand, probably 90% of what shows up that isn't kid-safe seems either unneccesary (e.g. profanity) or irrelevant to the actual topic (e.g. "OMGZ sexy ladies!! LOLOL!!" posts). Still, I don't like censorship and unless there's a decision to try and really go for a kid-safe environment, it's best to just ignore content you don't care for.

As far as parenting resposibilies, I agree that it's not possible to block them with certainty. Even Tony's proposed system won't work against a determined kid, and that system is about the most you could expect from someone who isn't a security expert.

"I guess i'll leave you all to your tea and crumpets"

Toodles.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:47 pm 
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I think it's quite possible to disagree with Dana's very moderate concerns without mocking them. She's just raising an issue--a good one--which is that our comments here are our public face. There've been a lot of good discussions and some bickering spats... (I'm not innocent myself). Wasn't there a reason for respectful conversation in a dojo and is it so wrong to suggest that similar considerations apply especially online where misinterpretations are easier to make?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:02 pm 
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Dana has asked some good, thought-provoking questions about these forums as a whole. I don't see this as whining at all.

This is truly a tough issue that the members of these forums and the Uechi-ryu website owners have to contemplate, debate and deal with. Since this is the "tough issues" forum, it is completely appropriate that such a conversation/debate/contemplate should occur here. The owners of this website and the higher Uechi-Ryu community as a whole have always been completely open, for better or for worse, with things going on in their community. Perhaps some haven't had their say for one reason or another, but if this forum can be a place to discuss these issues even with people scattered miles apart, then good.

With that in mind, let's not resort to demeaning comments that are unnecessary. helpful suggestions, such as screening SW are interesting and valid observations, such as the facts that most parents wouldn't know if their children were surfing porn sites are interesting to note. However, given the lack of oversight by most parents in these regards, what can we do for a children's forum and what can we do to make sure that children aren't (over)exposed to certain material here. IMNSHO it isn't really feasable to curtain subject matter that, by it's very nature, may be blunt (to put it kindly) on these forums. That doesn't mean that we, as adults, should condone or allow youngsters free access to that subject matter. IMO there must be ways to have the best of both worlds here... Open discussions for adults and a safe place for younger Uechi-ka. With the technical know-how of folks like Tony, there must be a way to let adults have access while screening kids... From things I've learned, having a form that asks if you are over 13 doesn't really work because, let's be reasonable here... those younger than 13 will just lie about it if they want to.

Constructive thoughts and comments are encouraged...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:12 pm 
I think far too much time is devoted to policing the forums and not enough is devoted to discussion. Sorry a few found my comments insulting. I have lots of respect for Dana, she rocks!

I'll leave it up to you folks to decide if this is going to become kiddy land or not.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:32 pm 
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Quote:
I think far too much time is devoted to policing the forums and not enough is devoted to discussion.


Try visiting a site without serious moderators and you'll quickly get disgusted and leave. I used to to some politcal sites that were monitored poorly and the discussions always degenerated into free-for-alls.

Quote:
Sorry a few found my comments insulting.


I didn't think your comment was even directed at Dana.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:56 pm 
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These forums are, in a sense, a "virtual" dojo.

I was fortunate to have had an Okinawan teacher who taught for four hours, than moved the furniture back into the room and shared tea and stories for another two hours.

The things we talked about were many of the same things that get discussed on these forums. When the discussions are lively and lots of people join in, I get the same excited feeling I got sitting with Tomoyose following class, discussing the similarities between gojo and Uechi. . . whether it was possible to defend yourself by practicing Kata alone, without ever being tested in an actual fight. . . etc, etc.

I would like everyone who visits our virtual dojo, to feel that way.

If someone were taking a class as a student, or teaching one, I believe no one would pepper their questions with profanity or insults. There may be special seminars where that kind of insult/profanity was part of the training, (Bulletman scenarios) but such behavior would not be tolerated for a second in the dojo by any teacher I know.

Its up to all of us to determine what this space should represent. Virtual dojo or just another chat room.

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"Do or do not. there is no try!"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:05 pm 
Panther wrote:
safe place for younger Uechi-ka. With the technical know-how of folks like Tony, there must be a way to let adults have access while screening kids...


There is NOTHING that I can do to prevent a kid from reading material on this site, NOTHING! That is, without making all the forums private, and that has already been discussed and shot down. So now what? The responsibility rests squarley on the shoulders of the parents. Don't waste your time putting it on my shoulders because one simple *shrug* and it will flop on the floor like a dead fish. I'm not carrying that load... i've sacrificed enough of my life for you people and i'm done and over it.

Responsibility is actually a compound word that comes from two words:

Response+Ability

and therein lies the problem. Parents today... do not have the ability to respond appropriately to the needs of their children. Their response is always some knee jerk reaction or some form of Blame-Storming, but the kids always seem to get the short end of the stick as far as having a clue goes.

A good parent is like a great okinawan Sai maker, he takes a diamond in the rough, forges it into an appropriate shape, with strategically placed strikes, and then shapes it into a fine, one of a kind Sai, like what George has. Some of you might get lucky and get the Shureido Sai, but most of you will get stuck with those cheap sais that are all crooked and break really easy. Thats not my fault, i'm not the blacksmith here... you are.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:52 am 
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I wasn't trying to put anything on anyone's shoulders! :?

I made my comment based on what was said before about how you stopped the youngsters in your house. That was admirable and now I know how you really feel! :lol:

Thanks for the explanation of past discussions about turning things private here. I didn't know about that.

I agree that it is ultimately 1) the parent's responsibility, and 2) something that may change the nature of the forums in a direction that most wouldn't like. I could suggest using a rating system for each forum, but that would probably work as good as the "R" rating at the movies has stopped kids from seeing the films without a parent present.

I don't know the answer and I wasn't trying to put it on your shoulders to come up with an answer. Sorry that I put it in a way that seemed I was expecting some miracle from you, that wasn't my intent...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:29 am 
I wasn't directing anything at you Panther, just spouting off into space. Sorry if i seemed to jump down yer throat...


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