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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:15 pm 
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Yes, you always need to look at the individual circumstances. Some Uechi women can kick butt, and some guys cannot, and so on. But my point is to be suspicious of stats that might say, oh, women are nearly as violent as men, for example. Consider this:

--Fight about X or Y
--Woman becomes "hysterical" and beats man about chest area or slaps him in manner that cannot injure him and/or is not intended to
--Man corrects situation she "started" with a solid punch that breaks jaw, stuns or knocks her out, or leaves a big black eye.

Blows landed:
XX: 10 XY: 1

Fights started
XX: 1 XY: 0

Who's more violent?

I know that there are false accusations and ruined lives etc, I'm just pointing out the usual balance of physical power (not always total power). The confusing stats go the other way when telling someone she's fat gets tallied into verbal abuse and sometimes thence into total abuse. Can't have much of an idea whether that was supportive or abusive or an unstanding joke without investigating each one.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:09 pm 
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This misses a major point I've been trying to make, Ian. Nobody should be hitting anyone.

If you hit someone in a non-self-defense situation, you have committed assault. If you hit someone in this manner, don't expect sympathy from me, and you shouldn't get it from society. If you beat your partner, you deserve to be left. Period. There can be no justice in domestic violence if this kind of simple sanity isn't applied.

Macho my ass...

Take the example of the police canine. Think how much work the officer puts in training such a dog for a good cause. And what happens if some kid beats on the dog, and it bites him? Most times the dog will bite. Then the dog gets destroyed. Have you ever wondered why good dog owners protect their dogs from people???

You cannot expect any person not to strike back when sucker-punched. You cannot expect a "man" to "take" anything. Nobody deserves to "take" anything.

If you want respect in this world, you need to give it and earn it. The vast majority of ""real men" and "real women" are smart and sensitive enough not to egage in this kind of stupidity. The rest IMO are just examples of Darwin's laws in action.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:48 pm 
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I don't remember advocating that anybody hit anybody... nor do I recall advocating sympathy for assailants. In the situation I described, both were at fault.

"You cannot expect any person not to strike back when sucker-punched."

This seems to be a rare occurence in domestic violence and I didn't describe a sucker punch myself.

"You cannot expect a "man" to "take" anything."

I expect a man, or woman, to do the right thing... if they aren't at risk of injury, then there's no reason to hit. If someone is angry and pounds on my chest, I'll leave without punching. If someone slaps me, and isn't likely to hurt me, unless they're actively attacking still, I'll leave without punching. Grab an arm or do something else that won't leave a mark if you need to protect yourself from such an attack--you'll feel better about it the next day if you have a heart and it's legally prudent compared to the action I described.

"Nobody deserves to "take" anything."

True. Ever see "Unforgiven?"

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:11 pm 
Quote:
I expect a man, or woman, to do the right thing... if they aren't at risk of injury, then there's no reason to hit. If someone is angry and pounds on my chest, I'll leave without punching. If someone slaps me, and isn't likely to hurt me, unless they're actively attacking still, I'll leave without punching. Grab an arm or do something else that won't leave a mark if you need to protect yourself from such an attack--you'll feel better about it the next day if you have a heart and it's legally prudent compared to the action I described.


Common sense , it`s good to see theres some left .

And if its a man who slapped me and theres a bigger threat i`ll drop them ...

were jsut not all created physically equal Bill , even though it`d make the law books easier to write .


Last edited by Stryke on Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:12 pm 
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I've never seen "unforgiven."

Hey, I'm not saying that people always should be hitting back when stuff comes at them. If that was the case, I would have decked my 7-year-old for the flying lunge he did at me yesterday while I was minding my own business watching TV. Even kids will be kids.

Engagement generally is a bad idea in domestic situations.

I will however remind folks of a few "innocent" things that happened in my life. Once a fraternity brother turned the corner in my house, and dumped a bucket of ice water on me. To both our surprises, I decked him. I only realized what I did AFTER I did it. Fortunately we were friends, and I did no permanent harm. In another situation someone threw a pillow in our living room at the frat house, and a mug of hot scalding water ended up in my crotch. The next thing I remember is the guy begging for me not to hit him as I had him collared with the left hand and right fist in ready-fire position.

These were simple horseplay situations, Ian, and I found myself instictively attacking. It scares the crap out of me. And getting slugged by anyone of any level of physical ability should scare the crap out of us all.

It's a slippery slope. I hear what you and Marcus are saying. But I don't buy we should be expected always to be selective about our responses to surprise "assault" situations. We aren't programmed that way. When our brains perceive a life-threatening event, we are programmed to fight or flight first, and ask questions later. In thread after thread on these webpages, people talk about programming ourselves to respond aggressively to a sudden life-threatening attack lest we be 6 feet under.

Ask a policeman if he feels good about shooting a kid playing with a toy gun. Then ask yourself if we should be surprised.

It's a slippery slope argument. I don't like the apologies being given to the person assaulting someone else. I believe we shouldn't tempt fate. I hope you understand.

And if you recall, my recommended solution to the domestic violence situation is to leave the relationship. That's not advocating a return of fire, is it?

- Bill


Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:16 pm 
Quote:
It's a slippery slope. I hear what you and Marcus are saying. But I don't buy we should be expected always to be selective about our responses to surprise "assault" situations. We aren't programmed that way. When our brains perceive a life-threatening event, we are programmed to fight or flight first, and ask questions later.


It`s good we get to argue this in court .

If it`s not reasonable then we`ll go to jail .

good on both counts .

If you knock out a women for throwing cold water on you Bill i for one hope your locked up ...

get my point ?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:24 pm 
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Stryke wrote:

If you knock out a women for throwing cold water on you Bill i for one hope your locked up ...

get my point ?

Please re-read what I wrote above, Marcus. I chose my words more carefully, so you absolutely would understand the situation.

I don't care what you hope in that situation, Marcus, it won't change what I or the next person does. Society can feel all warm and fuzzy for sticking it to the "bad man" if that's what turns them on. Me? I see something very different.

Meanwhile, THIS IS WHY I SAID GET THE HELL OUT OF A DOMESTIC VIOLENCE SITUATION.

Why is this so difficult for people to understand? I hear you, and I am not changing my position. Society can do whatever the hell it wants. It doesn't change the laws of nature.

By the way, I just bought and installed another gun safe last night. It's all part of my general philosophy of PREVENTING tragedy from happening in the first place.

- Bill


Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:27 pm 
Quote:
Once a fraternity brother turned the corner in my house, and dumped a bucket of ice water on me. To both our surprises, I decked him.


It`s not personal Bill , I`d hope the same of anyone that did such a thing .

I hope nothing bad happens to you period .

But your arguing that you could deck a women if they did this (being all are equal)

I quoted you perfectly , no distortion there ?

Quote:
Society can do whatever the hell it wants. It doesn't change the laws of nature.



Law should reflect nature , not ignore it .

more living in lala land IMHO

i guess i`m just an old fashioned guy , I still feel it`s more serious when you strike someone dissproportionate in abilitys to yourself , and that includes most women .


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:31 pm 
On the other hand are you saying you react and knock folks out without flinching and going backwards ;)

just teasing ya mate !!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:36 pm 
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Marcus wrote:

But your arguing that you could deck a women if they did this (being all are equal)

Let's start with the full quote, Marcus. This is what I said and meant in its entirety.
Bill wrote:

Once a fraternity brother turned the corner in my house, and dumped a bucket of ice water on me. To both our surprises, I decked him. I only realized what I did AFTER I did it.

I'm curious as to why you elected not to post that final line. Omitting that sure did change the meaning, didn't it?

Marcus wrote:

But your arguing that you could deck a women if they did this (being all are equal)

No.

I am arguing that if you take a kid and have him slug a perfectly good dog, that the dog will bite the kid. Then the dog gets destroyed. That is a tragedy.

I am arguing that on a police call about prowlers with weapons, that a police officer may shoot a kid aiming a toy gun at him. This has happened before, and it will happen again. People make horrible, horrible mistakes because they perceive a life-threatening situation.

I am arguing that if you wake up as in the original scenario that this thread started on (please re-read it) and someone is beating the *& %$# out of you, that very bad things can happen to whomever is beating the *&% $#@ out of you. This can happen before you realize what has happened.

I am arguing that a woman has no (none, zero, zilch, nada) right to strike a man. There's nothing manly or womanly about that situation. It is stupid and illegal for the woman to do this. She also is tempting fate. She has resorted to violence, and she has just written a check she may not be able to cash.

I am arguing that the man in that situation is in a NO WIN situation. I am arguing that no man deserves that kind of woman. I am arguing that the woman should be left. Not beaten. Not hit. Left.

Why? Cause crap can happen and there's nothing happy about the outcome.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:40 pm 
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I'm curious as to why you elected not to post that final line. Omitting that sure did change the meaning, didn't it?


It changes nothing I requoted the whole thing above



Quote:
Once a fraternity brother turned the corner in my house, and dumped a bucket of ice water on me. To both our surprises, I decked him. I only realized what I did AFTER I did it


ok replace brother with sister , and fraternity with umm tennis club member .

It`s still more serious that you hit a women now yes ?



and I agree no one should be legally allowed to assault anyone .


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:48 pm 
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Yes. Precisely. Exactly.

And my solution? LEAVE!!!!

Anybody who does that to you doesn't deserve your company.

I would tell the same thing to a woman who has been struck by her significant other.

My frat brothers knew not to throw buckets of ice water on me if I was minding my own business (unless I was their football coach...), or dump mugs of scalding water on Little Willie. This is common sense.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:00 pm 
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Ask a LEO why it is SOP to handcuff someone before taking them off to be booked. This is done no matter whom you are.

It's smart... It shows an understanding of human nature. It shows sensitivity for the wellbeing of the person they are taking into custody, never mind a respect for their own personal welfare.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:28 am 
Amazing how two people can see things the exact same way and come up with two opposite but logical conclusions ....


But the biggest thing I took from this was that you dont always go backwards Bill !!! :lol: :lol: 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:14 am 
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Unforgiven is a great movie Bill, check it out. Eastwood has a great line in there about how "deserve" factors into real life violence... not sure i should spoil it.

It's hard for people to leave some of these relationships. There's finances... leaving for the street with no cash and no job or no job skills often. There's kids--that you don't want to leave or that you can't leave or that the other uses as chips. Habit... fear... psychological dependence and being used to being a victim.

Like quitting booze sometimes. Usually the best move, but easier said than done.

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