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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:12 am 
yup Bills always full of surprises , but we do need to question his thinking to reveal the gems ;)

wouldnt it ****** if no one dug beyond the veneer

folks might feel more comfortable but there`d be less learning ...


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:33 am 
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Just because I haven't been posting, doesn't mean I don't take some time and check on what others are saying...

I have thought about jumping in on a couple of things, but everyone is being pretty good debating issues and not attacking each other (too much... just keep an eye on it)...

So... I just wanted to comment on this statement:

Stryke wrote:
And I feel my welcome on the forums running out fast .

the fact is i dont know but I have some ideas , lets explore this ....

thats the kinda teacher we all deserve .


I haven't read anything too bad lately and this is an area of discussion that comes up periodically which, when approached from a clearly emotionless, academic perspective, seems to get some good thoughts and comments. GEM (and any real Sensei worth his rank) not only allows such open comments and thoughts, not only respects others opinions and views, but in the past has actively participated in these types of discussions. He is one of many examples here who can be a purist in his first/primary style and also spend countless hours cross-training and understanding other styles.

Anyway, my point is you aren't wearing out your welcome... at least not right now. As many can attest, I'm not shy about letting folks know when they have crossed the lines for this forum, and I generally give a heads up warning when someone is getting close. The rules are clear and if it's a "tough issue" and folks can be civil... go for it.

As always, just remember:

Be good to each other... Little stuff isn't worth fighting over, so try to give each other understanding.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:43 am 
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Nice thing about Bill is that he doesn't mind being questioned about what he posts.

I hear you about the veneer, but I don't see it much anymore It might be just the way I look at instructors from any style. I've dropped using "sensei" so much as Westerners have mutated it to mean more than it does and I will either call someone by their first name or as Mr. "Your name here". If someone insists that sensei is part of their name then I'm walking. I will make exceptions for certain people in limited environments. But that doesn't mean that I don't respect many of these people.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:55 am 
thanks Panther 8)

Quote:
but I don't see it much anymore It might be just the way I look at instructors from any style.


thats because you chase the answers and not the dogma Mike .

your approach to training sounds very much like my own .

the problem with these threads is it`ll all come back to me sounding anti style , and I`m far from that .

It`s just a issue of the dogma and the lack of substance handed out in many places , all disguised as do it x + y becuase thats (insert style x here)

no testing no addressing skill and ability , a focus on drills and memorisation and doing for doings sake , not improvement or real ability .

when the student finally learns he`s learning a system and not an ability it`s only natural for them to be a little miffed . Do kata xyz and drill abc for 15 years and youll be able to handle yourself !!

they joined to learn to fight and they never confronted that .

the fact is 12 months boxing and 12 months wrestling and youll defeat most traditionalists thast have trained for 10 or so years .

why is that ? , it`s certainly not the arts themselves, but the way there trained and executed . Not enough honesty in the training IMHO


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:12 pm 
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FWIW

Much of what I've learned about the subject of Emotional Intelligence comes from this book.

Emotional Intelligence : Why It Can Matter More Than IQ

It is a classic. Van has quoted from it before. It is one of the first works in the literature I have found that uses the expression "emotionally hijacked." It talks about a lot of things that are related to martial arts. It talks about a lot of things that will make you squirm, because you realize that the inept person they are talking about is you. Worse yet, then you have the curse of having a 13-year-old son who happens to be bright, but he shoots himself in the foot over and over again in ways that keep him from achieving his true potential.

When I write about traits of human nature, I see them in many people. And then we get the phantom hijacking, because the reader sees it in himself and thinks "Oh man, that jerk is dissing me!!" :lol:

It's pretty funny if you allow yourself to laugh at yourself.

One of the more insecure guys I know is Tony Blauer. But the difference between Tony and the next person is that Tony will TELL you that his insecurities and fears drove him to be the overachiever that he was. He took a human "flaw" and went some place with it.

It's not all bad...

Muhammed Ali made a career out of his ego. So do most boxers worth their salt. I love Mr. Ali dearly.

It's not all bad...

This is all the foo foo stuff that we macho boys want to deny is part of achievement, or part of what keeps us from achieving to our full potential (or seemingly beyond). It's worth a look.

No reason to believe I'm dissing anyone here.

And there's no reason not to give that rock on the ground a second look now and then. One of the great problems of walking through life in alpha wave mode is that we miss out on seeing things that are obvious to someone new to a subject. It never hurts to refocus the brain to see things new all over again. The same is true with people and what they have to offer.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:12 pm 
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Thanks Bill, I remember that guy now.

Quote:
There is an emotional intelligence that IMO must go along with the intellectual and physical intelligence. Sadly I think this is lacking in Western martial arts.

Now why do you believe this is lacking in WMA but present in EMA? :?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:36 pm 
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Hmm... I think it is present in the "ideal" of EMA. But the reality certainly can be something very diffeent.

When they talked about the conflicts of Sanchin being body, mind, and spirit, I never understood the spirit thing. After I dispensed with the whole chi business, I thought that it had nothing to do with mystical powers. Religion? I certainly hope not.. 8O Then when I started to read about this whole field of Emotional Intelligence, I believe I finally got it. And you know what? Nobody taught that to us per se in Okinawa. Either something was lost in the translation, or we didn't understand it, or it got caught up in the whole rank and dominance thing, or whatever.

These days, I have folks in the dojo read books. In case you didn't notice, I'm creating a reading list for the dojo. Goleman's book most definitely will be on the list, and IMO has everything to do with fighting (or managing conflict).

My friendly "disagreement" with Marcus has to do with his statement (a long time ago) about him basically being an "arms dealer." I understand where he is coming from. However I think there's something very big missing if we only concentrate on "whack here when they do that" and "you might piss your pants" and "shoot with this." People talk about it in bits and pieces. But I don't see it being handled in the coherent fashion (like HAPV) the way Goleman or other authors do. And IMO it's a must read before getting into Grossman's work. You'll see that Grossman probably read Goleman before many of his thoughts crystalized.

Good stuff... 8)

After you read and understand Goleman (and it takes me weeks to digest just a single chapter), then re-read Dana's original post. It begins to take on more meaning in light of that body of knowledge. Tomoyose and the fictitious Miyagi personify high EQ, but they don't teach it outright. That doesn't mean it isn't important.

Tomoyose was designated a national treasure where he lives. Why is that? What do they see that gets lost in the translation to our culture?

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:23 pm 
So you think karate should be part camp councillor , cool :silly:


so this really has nothing to do with addressing karates effectiveness and the system , just that karate isnt about that really , and I shouldnt be dissapointed when I find out Ive been lied to .

And for the record theres a lot of emotion with folks I train with , I only train with friends , and we support and encourage each other .

I wouldnt sell firearms to anyone ya know :lol: 8)

Interesting angle Bill , But I`d call it mindset ... Vans got a forum on it and it pervades my martial arts .


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:07 pm 
were all incredibly flawed individuals

and usually or weaknesses are our strentghs .

Myself I`ve been told many times Im overly Loyal

And I can live with that :)

And it sure makes sense , No wonder I get so annoyed when that sense of loyalty is abused .....

Quote:
Tomoyose was designated a national treasure where he lives. Why is that? What do they see that gets lost in the translation to our culture?


Just another case of the inferior westerner .....

Of course he`s a national treasure , Much as George is an IUKF treasure to a lot of folks .

why isnt George a designated treasure , recognised by the government?

kind of simple ... it`s cultural and economic .

being that karate is a cultural Icon of okinawa , and it`s biggest export since draft dodging martial artists .... :lol: :lol:

It`s common sense , not some sort of cultural superiority and emotional intelligence .


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:26 pm 
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Marcus

You are under the false impression that I am attacking you. I am not. I hold you in very high regard, and I'll get your back whenever you need it.

You are under the false impression that I don't understand your path. While I don't know everything, you know darned well that we agree on a lot of things. We like many of the same martial geniuses out there. We are in awe over many of the same things. We have come across the same frustrations in life.

Sleep on it, Marcus. I am not dissing you. I am just stirring up the dust, as we all should every once in a while. If you and I agreed on everything, that would scare me. I don't want a world of people just like me.

There's no implied superiority anywhere here. I understand from several on these webpages that I come across in a manner that is different from what I intend. I have thick skin. Tell me you disagree, and we can be done with it. That's all I'm telling you. The more I know someone and the closer I get to them, the more I find there are unique points of view. Neither is necessarily superior. But if I didn't like what I thought, then it would be pretty silly, don't you think? I'm expressing something here that I find important, that has meaning to me. I found something that I'd like to share. It will mean something to some, and not to others. It may mean nothing to you now, but it might one day.
Quote:
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

- Bill


Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:28 pm 
hey Bill , not under the illsuion your attacking me at all Bill .

I`m not highjacked and my positng style is argumentative probably .

Am enjoying the discussion .

I just see to many smoke and mirrirs in MA when it really is simple stuff , but no one seems to get even the simple stuff .....

Maybe like you , Ive got a nack for seeing to the crux of it and get frustrated .

Differences are good !!!


Last edited by Stryke on Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:30 pm 
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Good. I don't want anyone - least of all you - to get the impression that I think anything but the best of you.

That doesn't mean I won't say I'm right and you ******! :P

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:32 pm 
Hey I respect your right to your opinion .

I mean it`s not your fault your a dumbass!!! :silly:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:53 pm 
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Quote:
Tomoyose was designated a national treasure where he lives. Why is that? What do they see that gets lost in the translation to our culture?

I think what gets lost is the word national. Someone may be a national treasure in his home country, but just another nice old fellow elsewhere. Someone may be a treasure in his own home to his family but just another guy in line at Starbucks outside of it. A kid may not understand why others don't think his dad is the coolest guy or his mom the most beautiful woman in the world the way that he does, and it's the same in the martial arts. Master X is the ultimate martial artist to some but others just see another guy in white PJs. I think the smart ones know this and keep a sense of humor about it.

Quote:
I think it is present in the "ideal" of EMA. But the reality certainly can be something very diffeent.
Here's where things get muddy, at least for me. If we're talking about it as an ideal then I think it also exists in all Western sports as sportsmanship. I think I can see why it's an ideal Bill and IMO it has to do with forgetting that martial arts are a nasty dangerous business. I don't think anybody wants to be in a bad place and have an emotional wreck watching your back.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:55 pm 
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Maybe some of it is the widespread impression that karate and martial art training is "supposed" to make you a better person.

Not saying it can't or does not---just that the perception is that it does..

Which kinda begs the questions as to why--if karate training was supposed to make people better---then why did the old Okinawan teachers have so many rules and make so many comments about not teaching "violent" people or those of poor character??


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