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 Post subject: Islam and Gender Issues
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:43 am 
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Thread rules:
1) No overlong posts
2) No extensive quoting from other sources. Rather, link, summarize, and interpret.
3) No personal attacks, no hyperbole.
4) Topic is islam and sexism / gender violence: is there a link; is it the religion, is it the culture, is there sexism at all; does the religion cause or ameliorate or just stand by? Comparisons to other imperfect religions and cultures permitted, but not in a tangential or diversionary way.

Some links to get us started. I especially liked the first for its honesty.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/x/honor_killings.htm
http://www.secularislam.org/women/honor.htm
http://www.secularislam.org/women/dont.htm
http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

This one entertainingly biased:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina50128.htm

This one from those zealots at national geographic:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... lling.html
There is nothing in the Koran, the book of basic Islamic teachings, that permits or sanctions honor killings. However, the view of women as property with no rights of their own is deeply rooted in Islamic culture, Tahira Shahid Khan, a professor specializing in women's issues at the Aga Khan University in Pakistan, wrote in Chained to Custom, a review of honor killings published in 1999.

"Women are considered the property of the males in their family irrespective of their class, ethnic, or religious group. The owner of the property has the right to decide its fate. The concept of ownership has turned women into a commodity which can be exchanged, bought and sold."

Honor killings are perpetrated for a wide range of offenses. Marital infidelity, pre-marital sex, flirting, or even failing to serve a meal on time can all be perceived as impugning the family honor.

Amnesty International has reported on one case in which a husband murdered his wife based on a dream that she had betrayed him. In Turkey, a young woman's throat was slit in the town square because a love ballad had been dedicated to her over the radio."

And some thoughts on Sharia law, from killings to sexism to involuntary circumcision:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Sharia/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/art ... 72,00.html
http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html

Here's a Sharia defense for western readers:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions ... principals

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:51 pm 
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dude, I was circumcized without permission right here in this country.....anyway we can blame Muslims for that????!??!?!?!?!?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:53 pm 
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Location: Tallahassee, FL
Quote:
1) No overlong posts
2) No extensive quoting from other sources. Rather, link, summarize, and interpret.
3) No personal attacks, no hyperbole.
4) Topic is islam and sexism / gender violence: is there a link; is it the religion, is it the culture, is there sexism at all; does the religion cause or ameliorate or just stand by? Comparisons to other imperfect religions and cultures permitted, but not in a tangential or diversionary way.


Gee, I like this one.......Ian wants to start a new thread and we all have to abide by his rules.....

I guess this is Ian's chance to bash islam once and for all........

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:57 pm 
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Location: Tallahassee, FL
Quote:
"Women are considered the property of the males in their family irrespective of their class, ethnic, or religious group. The owner of the property has the right to decide its fate. The concept of ownership has turned women into a commodity which can be exchanged, bought and sold."

Honor killings are perpetrated for a wide range of offenses. Marital infidelity, pre-marital sex, flirting, or even failing to serve a meal on time can all be perceived as impugning the family honor.

Amnesty International has reported on one case in which a husband murdered his wife based on a dream that she had betrayed him. In Turkey, a young woman's throat was slit in the town square because a love ballad had been dedicated to her over the radio."


One of the ways in which we will be bashing Islam today is to take everything ou to context and blow it out of proportion as much as possible......

so, for instance, if the above happens in three Muslim countries, we are going to use your ignorance against you to make you think that it occurs everywhere universally.......

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:59 pm 
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Ian, Gender means men and women, not just women........

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:05 pm 
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And what you are saying is that misandry is legitimated by misogyny, right?

that we treat men badly in our own country to make for women being treated badly in other countries........

that we cannot even speak up against negative portrayals of men until all negative portrayals of women have been eliminated in far flung countries......

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:10 pm 
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Why doesnt he start his own thread on misogyny and I promise to participate.........
Quote:

this isnt a thread about misogyny....

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:41 pm 
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Ian:
You should've said that you can't post again until someone else does.

Anyhow, as to the content, what point are you trying to make, Ian? That women's rights are often trampled upon in Islamic countries. Is there more explicit subjugation of women in the Christian bible than in the koran? I think a lot of the link between Islam and misogyny is circumstantial.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:36 pm 
Are you guys really targeting Islam and it`s treatment of women , maybe because you dont like Akils logic on other things ?

Seems kind of the opposite of your usual trains of thought is all , shouldnt all intolerance and persecution be treated equally .

Do you really think it`s the province of Islam ?

hard to follow the logic here at times .

we could get into christianity being anti Gay Ian ... that`d be fun but irrelevant too .....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:53 pm 
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ATH: Why did I post this topic? You gave me the idea. What is its message? I invited a discussion, including a defense of islam, from anyone interested. In fact I posted a defense of Sharia law myself. But yes, I'm trying to get you to put your rage against misandry in the context of other problems, such as the large one of honor killings in islamic countries. For now, I have a request of you:

Don't imagine things. I never said that gender applied to women and not men (how would that help anything?). I never said that misogyny somewhere supported misandry elsewhere or vice versa. I never said that ALL islamic countries were anything, and I never took anything out of context. I provided links to the FULL articles I found in a google search so context would be ABUNDANT. So again: only reply to words that actually exist. Thank you. Please provide posts and not immediate reactions.

Stryke: this thread does not have to be relevant to another thread. It is it's own thread. If misandry in the USA is a legitimate topic than so is misogyny in Islam. Meanwhile, as to your query: "Seems kind of the opposite of your usual trains of thought is all , shouldnt all intolerance and persecution be treated equally," I agree completely! I'm against intolerance in all its forms. If you want to start a thread on christianity (or islam, since this is the driving force behind the stonings of some lesbians in the last few years and the detention and forced medical therapy of a bunch of male homosexuals in islamic countries) and gay (aka human) rights, feel free, I will comment as needed.

Valkenar: I am not here making any statement as to the goodness or badness of christianity nor am I proposing a competition. I am merely asking why islam and what I call misogyny sometimes intersect. Again: "does the religion cause or ameliorate or just stand by?" ATH is free to support a claim that islam is AGAINST gender violence and that would be lovely to hear, if you ask me.

For the record, I don't care what anyone's religion is. I don't think a religious book is good, or bad; I don't read them. I don't inquire about people's religions or make assumptions. I don't lump all christians, muslims, islamists, jews, or whatever together. I personally believe the most important rule is the golden rule, and I favor science and human rights, and a faith in men, over a faith in the supernatural. I would leave religion out of all governmental and penal decisions. And I leave people alone to do their thing except where that thing interferes with others.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:27 am 
Quote:
If you want to start a thread on christianity (or islam, since this is the driving force behind the stonings of some lesbians in the last few years and the detention and forced medical therapy of a bunch of male homosexuals in islamic countries) and gay (aka human) rights, feel free, I will comment as needed.


I wouldnt want to Ian , I just wondered where you were coming from , I see these debates flawed , I see correlating Islam and abuse or Christianity and abuse as pointless .

It`s the abuse that needs addressing , if something is perverted as a tool to spread hatred and discrimiantion , the issue should always be the hatred and discrimination and the flawed individuals .

the religons are largely irrelevant , the culture of abuse is the issue .

Quote:
If misandry in the USA is a legitimate topic than so is misogyny in Islam.


I dont beleive USA is a religon , but it`s a slippery slope to go there .

I beleive Misogyny in afghanisatn or pakisatn or Usa would be a much more practical topic .

but each there own , was just clarifying because I find this out of character .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:05 am 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Im muslim, im a practicing muslim, my mother usually covers her head with a scarf and i try to pray five times a day. But i dont care about gender issues.

The most i really do care about it is how if i were a , a woman with big breasts and a mouth full of white teeth will probably get better tips. Other then that, i really dont care.

Im more worried about my uechi and my comic book scripts.

Honor killings are highly cultural. In jerusalem and Iran, the conservative christian families often kill thier daughters as well. Why? Reputation is everything in a poor community. You daughter is known as a slut, true or not, and it is the worst thing that can happen to a family. Hence, they are dumbasses and kill thier daughters. You just hear more about it for muslims because there are more muslims in that area.

"Answering islam" actually ended up pissing off one former christian muslm apostate really bad. Here is his site http://www.answering-christianity.org/ac.htm


The mirror image of what is on answering islam, and just as out of context as answering islam.:http://www.answering-christianity.org/ac12.htm#links



Well, about two years ago, i used to go on these anti islam pages alot. I showed it too my dad and basically found that they took everything horribly out of context, and take hadith out of context(actually hadith is far more complicated then people actually know, even other practicing muslims)
So akil is right about the context part.

I see the same thing with the bible done by athiests and muslims/jews against christianity. I dont believe the stuff on the 'answering christianity' website. Because if that really was in christianity, well we would have far more pat robertson's running around, and fortunatly, for now we do not.
They take versus from the bible and take them out context just like the quran.

Besides, ibn warraq is rather questionable in his motives, if he really did some research, he would not take everything so(yes ill say it again) out of context.


IJ: I agree with you about Dr.Ali Sina. That guy used to piss me off, but now i find him funny! This one website rips apart his story of him being a 'Dr' of islamic studies, really really bad.

IJ: Coming from a guy who practices religion, this may sound strange, but i found athiests to be far more intellegent and open then most religious people of thiestic faith. It's just easier to talk openly with them. That said, i do have alot of muslim friends, alot of christian friends as well. But my close close friends are athiest.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:36 am 
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Stryke, I'm with you that the action matters most... and unjust actions, in the end, are all the same, regardless of whom they target. We just group them together to talk about them because its convenient.

In this case, I wasn't saying the USA was a religion. It is a cultural force, and so is any religion, or the absence of religion, like communism. None of these things, or the "middle east" or "pakistan" is a monolith. We're all talking about generalities. Again, it's just convenient. I do think its worthwhile to talk about how the major cultural features of an area or whatever influences an important behavior.

In this case, it's been raised by many that islam is a more violent, or sexist religion. The same has been said about Mormons. Yet, my only experience with mormons is that they're ridiculously nice, respectful, and supportive of themselves and culture in general.

Here's my big question: ISLAM isn't out to murder women for "honor," or blow up buses... but when those things are done, the people who claim responsibility these days generally cite Islam as a motivation. What gives? Why is there this "ven diagram" overlap between islam, which as a gazillion peaceful adherents, and terrorism / fundamentalist nastiness toward women? Even if ATH didn't visit the forums, this is something I think the USA would do well to understand, given our current issues.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:53 am 
Quote:
it's been raised by many that islam is a more violent, or sexist religion.


I would argue(in places) that Islam exists in a more violent culture , the difference being causality .

If we attack the religon we make it impossible to reach the hearts and minds of the people of Islamic faith in these regions .

If we cite it as a culture of violence and tout true Islam as a proof/cure we may open a few minds and effect some small change .

I see Christians as every bit as disfunctional as Muslim , i do not see the faith as the problem , but the culture and perversion of said faiths .

And i see such singling out just another reason to create more stereotypes , and reinforce negative attitudes against a religion rather than a culture .

One could argue statistically differing races are more prone to crime and violence , Your argument would have differing races needing to be treated differently .

when we know as educated people circumstance , and culture , have to take the blame and not a particular skin colour .

Do you ever think extremisim will end in the third world ?

I do not , I beleive it is circumstance that creates the extremist .

Quote:
Here's my big question: ISLAM isn't out to murder women for "honor," or blow up buses... but when those things are done, the people who claim responsibility these days generally cite Islam as a motivation. What gives?


Radical Islam Ian , when A Homosexual gets bashed to death because some Redneck christian gets hit on and says it`s against god .... Is that christianitys fault ?

Does the average church (wether accepting or not) preach the beating to death ... no . it is the individuals , and radicals .

did the IRA follow the good book , it was a religous war yes ? , the Ulster Unionists ?

religion may be an excuse but it is only ever that .

Do you seriously not know why America is hated in the middle east ?

i`ll stay out of that i dont usually discuss politics or religion on here ... and i`m getting close to talking religion already .


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:07 am 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Stryke has the right of it, these days the muslims world is pitiful and violent and ignorant and a giant waste of time.

Thats why i love my canada! :P


IJ: They cite islamic motivation as an excuse and to get other dumbass muslims who know nothing about thier religion but love subjucating their woman, often hear this call.

DETAILS:


Culture wise, i have noticed extreme pride in muslims. Everything stems from constant re-inforcement i have seen from father to son, friend to friend.

I am pakistani, therefore i am smarter and more educated then that arab and that white man and all those christains and jews.

I am arab, i am stronger and am of a highter caste of birth then that pakistani and that white man and all the christains and jews.

I am turkish. I dont do any honor killings like those stupid arabs. I have europian blood in me. I am better.


Woman burning in pakistan: Althought the men use religion to justify thier actions, being pakistani i know some cultural garbage in there. Basically, they burn woman who marry outside the family. The rural pakistani's and the poor communities like to inter marry within the same clan or villiage. If in the city, they want to marry thier daughter/son to the closest family friend.
Why? Because they do not want the family wealth and inheritence to spread out and lessen.
Money is the key motvation for the burnings.

Long long ago, the islamic world was once the pinacle of science and civiliazation. Even the romans envied the muslims world. Infact, the rest of the world viewed the arabs as strange, considering that it had many woman who could actaully read books.

But then, infighting took place. And hence, europe went through an age of enlightenment and the arab world was stuck where it was in the end of the crusades.

And other bad ##### happened, and thus the arabs went back to what they were in pre-islamic times: Backwards.


I am pakistani, not arab. But i have heard some of the most disgusting comments made by arabs. An iraqi proverb is something like this(it isnt exact): If our daughter dishonors us, we will kill her. But her absence will hurt us, so we will know we loved her.

Culturally, i noticed many muslim cultures just seem to hate woman. Its freaky. 8O

I never heard anything like this in a mosque. I heard it from a bunch of arabs who could not answer the simplist question about islam, but talk with horrible patriotism about how they are proud they are to be muslim. Thats where i heard that garbage.

Harsh surrounding make harsh people. When your daddy tells you your a step highter then every other race of muslim and a mountain higher then someone of a different faith, you get some ##### up #####.

Alot of terrorist organizations recruit using wahabism and ignorance. Many muslims know nothing about thier religion, they inherited being muslim by birth. So when osama's little underlings say that your sure to go to heaven by killing jews and christians and mulsims who disagree with you, these guys go for it.(although the trade center bombers were pretty educated, but they were born and raised wahabi's, exept one guy, who is the most enegmatic)


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