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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:02 am 
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If you've scanned some other threads on Iraq you'll see that I wasn't a supporter of starting the war but I am a proponent of not leaving a bigger mess by leaving to soon. For or against it, there we are, and unless we have a time machine, we should figure out our best strategy for stabilizing the place and getting out. What's our alternative? Leave an embittered culture with more ammunition for an ongoing war of ideas and bombs?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:35 pm 
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True, but it is a double standard none the less...and can you imagine the backlash if Saddam stormed washington and forced Islam on the US of A....all hell would break loose....there were no suicide bombers in Iraq...(just like no chemical weapons) till the coalition arrived so it really is the fault of the invaders....just leave people alone...that is what I say!

Bush lied to justify a war..to finish what his daddy started...hogwash....not a good example for Democracy....corruption and lies!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:07 pm 
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Savage

So what about the sucide bombers elsewhere?

We were not in Iraqi when a group of murderous thugs flew planes into bldgs and killed 3000 people.

You claiming that all suicide bombers are the fault of the USA?
That the ME would be a reagion of peace and harmony if we were not there?

Sheesh.

Like the US being in Iraqi is the "reason" a guy/gal team blew up a muslim wedding in JORDAN.

Or why the terrorist are busy murdering the women and children of fellow muslims in Iraqi.

Of course you might have to explain why many of the terrorists are Syrian and Checnyian etc.
And some are PAID to fight there.
So what does a merc care about whom they fight?

Look claiming that Bush "lied" requires more than just your "say-so."

I would point out that Clinton made the same claims to SH having WMD's that Bush used.
Clinton usd those claims to jusitfy his military action in Iraqi as well.

So if "Bush lied" then so did Clinton.

An act that I have yet to see anyone stepping and claiming.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 11:55 pm 
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The Middle East hates us because we support Israel.
Israel committed an illegal action by even being formed which was even denounced by the UN.


Here's the story in a super small not detailed nutshell.

Jewish refugees settle from Russia and other parts of Europe to Northern Palestine beginning in the early 1900's. They are tolerated by the British controlled territory.

More refugees arrive and tensions between the two groups escalate.

Jews form the Zionist movement, whose goal is to create a Jewish state within Palestine as the promised land. The Zionists ask and receive help from the U.S., in forms of money and other goods.

Palestinian/Jewish Refugee relations begin to sour, U.S. supplies overwhelming money, weapons, training an equipment to the Jewish refugees, they decide to go to war , they outnumber and outgun the Palestinian forces beyond belief, and the battle was over in a matter of days.
Israel is formed, and UN complains.
Boom.
End of story.

Sound strange?
Imagine if Mexico decided, hey, you know what? We have over 50% of our population in California, so why don't we just take it over, and Russia says to Mexico, hey, here's a HUGE amount of overwhelming resources to aid in your struggle, just don't forget us when you win.
(wink, wink)

America has been supporting injustice in the Mid-east for almost a century. Of course they are pissed at us.
Wouldn't you be?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:56 pm 
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It seems like you're mixing up different events and wrapping them into one. I'm not pro-Israel or pro-Palestine...

-Metablade- wrote:
The Middle East hates us because we support Israel.
Israel committed an illegal action by even being formed which was even denounced by the UN.

Here's the story in a super small not detailed nutshell.

Jewish refugees settle from Russia and other parts of Europe to Northern Palestine beginning in the early 1900's. They are tolerated by the British controlled territory.

More refugees arrive and tensions between the two groups escalate.

Jews form the Zionist movement, whose goal is to create a Jewish state within Palestine as the promised land. The Zionists ask and receive help from the U.S., in forms of money and other goods.

Palestinian/Jewish Refugee relations begin to sour, U.S. supplies overwhelming money, weapons, training an equipment to the Jewish refugees, they decide to go to war , they outnumber and outgun the Palestinian forces beyond belief, and the battle was over in a matter of days.
Israel is formed, and UN complains.
Boom.
End of story.


(From A History of the Middle East)

"In a 1917 letter from British foreign secretary Lord Balfour to Jewish financier Lord Rothschild, the British government expressed a commitment to creating a Jewish homeland in Palestine. This letter is commonly known as the Balfour Declaration.

After World War I, Palestine was assigned to the United Kingdom as a mandated territory by the League of Nations. The Palestinian Mandate initially included the lands that are now Israel and Jordan, but all lands east of the Jordan River were later placed into a separate mandate known as Transjordan (now the nation of Jordan). The document creating the Palestinian mandate incorporated the terms of the Balfour Declaration, promising the creation of a national Jewish homeland within the mandated territory. Although Arab leaders were initially willing to give Palestine to the Jews if the rest of the Arab lands in the Middle East were free, the Arabs living in Palestine vigorously opposed Jewish immigration into the territory and the idea of a Jewish homeland. It is around this time that the idea of Palestinian nationality (distinct from Arab nationality generally) first begins to appear. There were many riots in the territory, and the British came to believe that the conflicting claims were irreconcilable. In 1937, the British recommended partition of the territory.

The British were unable to come up with a solution that would satisfy either Arabs or Jews, so in 1947, they handed the problem to the newly-founded United Nations, which developed a partition plan dividing Palestine into Jewish and Arab portions. The plan was ratified in November 1947. The mandate expired on May 14, 1948 and British troops pulled out of Palestine. The Jews of Palestine promptly declared the creation of the State of Israel, which was recognized by several Western countries immediately.

However, the surrounding Arab nations did not recognize the validity of Israel and invaded, claiming that they were filling a vacuum created by the termination of the mandate and the absence of any legal authority to replace it. The Arabs fought a year-long war to drive the Jews out. Miraculously, the new state of Israel won this war, as well as every subsequent Arab-Israeli war, gaining territory every time the Arabs attacked them.
"

U.S. aid for Israel came later, but the battle that only lasted days was in the late 60s and was between Israel and Egypt. In that case, the U.S. did not assist at all and even quit supplying ammo. What the U.S. did was influence Israel to stop short of over-running Cairo and completely destroying the country of Egypt... and then helped to negotiate a treaty.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:23 pm 
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My rebuttal.

http://www.alhewar.com/Curtiss.html

Edited to say:
I am not pro-Isreal or Pro-Palestine either.
I am Pro-Justice, Pro-Harmony and Pro-Human.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:24 pm 
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Savage: do you seriously think you can make an analogy between the US's "forcing" of democracy on Iraq and an imaginary forcing of Islam on the USA?

All you need to do is look at the religious makeup of both nations, and their respective voting rates, to see that this comparison is absurd. A zillion purple thumbs in Iraq would like to refute your claim of involuntary self determination, whatever that would be.

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