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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:31 pm 
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Location: Boise, ID, USA
I could go into great detail

Why would someone seek religious or spiritual validation/support from a WalMart, Costco, Sears, or whatever type of retailer? Retailers are and always have been out to make a profit; that's their job. They were when they were telling us "Merry Christmas" just as much as when they switched to "Happy Holidays."

Just a thought, but I think if I ever craved a supportive Christian message, I might go to a Christian church. Crazy, I know, but it just might be crazy enough to work.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:58 pm 
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Brilliantly expressed!

I agree with you completely!

:D

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:15 pm 
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Posts: 1221
Meta

Ah, maybe because I was on vacation?

Dude, I tried to be nice--you have been nothing more than a deliberate arse.

You inncorrectly claimed that I said something that I did not.
Most folks would have just gone "sorry dude--I'll be more careful next time."
You decided to be "cute" instead.

I let it go--who knows maybe your just a "special needs" guy that needed a break.

Now you take my posts purposely and seriously out of context.

And when called on it, you again don't say your sorry--you don't every TRY to do better.

Once is mistake--twice is pattern--esp when you start mocking me rather than fixing the problems.

If you don't have the wheels to hang in a civil, intellegent discussion--then by all means slink away.

If you wish to get nasty--I am more than happy to shred you for the folks to watch.

But step up and be a man about it---save the BS out of context crap for the kiddie pool.

Merry Christmas :)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 6:22 pm 
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Mary

Thats a mis-characterization of the stance of the people involved.

They view it as a attempt to deny the very reason for the holiday itself.
Many also view it as a blatent attempt at social control by the anti-relgious crowd.

(there is a major difference between not practicing a relgion yourself and getting all bent out of shape when other people do---and trying to stop them from expression of it)

When you get right down to it you made an excellent point.

Business are in busines to make money--not to make a social point----in this case they errored by not really understanding their customer base.
The customer base spoke--and most business listened.

Market forces know no pity, and those that ignore the customers wants and needs do so at their own risk.

The system worked as it was designed.

I don't see why folks have problems with that.

Its not really any different than the marketing of the new X Box--give the customers what they want and you make money.
Deny them and you lose money.

Business 101.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 7:07 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I've been watching this thread with some degree of amazement and sadness.

I'd like to remind people of a certain election that transpired 13.5 months ago. In that election, the evangelical christian crowd was the deciding factor for the re-election of a president.

What amazed me afterwards was the arrogance - yes, arrogance - of those who voted for "the other guy." Somehow these bible thumpers just didn't get it. Why couldn't they see the world their way? What was wrong with them? Those damned, fundamentalist, extremist nitwits. Boy am I glad I live in a "blue state!"

:roll:

But the thing is, "the chosen one" lost. A vote is a vote, and the people spoke. It was close, but not that close.

Sigh...

What does it take for people to listen? And when are people going to understand that we are made stronger by diversity, and not by sterilization and homogenization?

- Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:28 pm 
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CXT,

あなたの単語は幼稚である.
なぜあなたの精神に憎悪があるか。?
生命及び愛は同じこれを見ないことができるであるか。
私は別の宗教である人々を憎まない。私はアメリカの多様性を愛する。私達の強さは私達の相違にある。
私はあなたの少数のアメリカの人々でも私があなたの宗教を尊重すると同時に、また人々へ感じを尊重しなければならない尋ねる。
これは人間の自由の本当の意味である。もう一人人をあなたとしてするか、または感じさせる。
愛の長い生命、多く、および2006 年の年もの間の多くの喜びを有するために私は望む。
私達が前にあったあることがより私達を新しく、新しくがあり今年始めることを許可しよくしなさい! 全力を尽しなさい!

あなたの感じが傷つくか、または侮辱したら、私は謝る。

Happy New Year!
:D

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:00 pm 
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Location: Boston
I hear ya Bill.... I don't think people should be too surprised at the outcome and democrats should understand that while they probably could have defeated GWB if they had presented non-doofoid alternatives, or a coherent plan of their own, they didn't do that, and so they lost. And you can't be too bitter about that, and threatening to move to canada makes little sense especially when you've got no plan carry though. Of course the flipside is that after two close elections--one which was decided in the supreme court after an extremely close vote in a single state, and another which went GWB's way, again, after voters selected him over doofoid alternatives, the winners declared a resounding mandate and there was a lot of noise from the right about their God, their superior values, and their control of a rather divided nation. The result wasn't exactly an effort to heal wounds and work together, you know? From either side--when you've got a large group claiming divine inspiration and insight and another group not buying it at all, their respective opinions of each other aren't going to be super.

On a side note, while Haiti is the poorest nation in the hemisphere, at leasting they've got like 30 candidates to choose from and catchy election jingles. Maybe there are far fewer strong candidates, but Kerry - Bush wasn't much of a "choice" for me.

FYI Bill: sent you a PM re: suparempi.

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--Ian


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:15 am 
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Location: Boise, ID, USA
Thanks, CXT.

I don't know if I'm reading your post correctly, but it appears that we for the most part agree.

Quote:
there is a major difference between not practicing a relgion yourself and getting all bent out of shape when other people do---and trying to stop them from expression of it)


But just to clarify my position regarding the above quote, I certainly don't want to trample on anyone's free speech or free expression of religion, be the messenger/practitioner a private citizen or a a huge corporation. What message a corporation disseminates with its own dollars is totally and completely its own business (within the present constraints of free speech). If I find it offensive enough, I have the choice to take my money elsewhere or go without the product or service. If ABC123 Corp decides to add scripture and religious icons to its ads, again, that is completely its right. I don't want to stop anyone from doing that.

But I must add that I am skeptical of the corporations' putting forth a specific religious message due to belief as much as to what they perceive to be acceptable to their market. I know there are exceptions to that statement; I can think of at least one right now. But to quote CXT,

Quote:
Market forces know no pity, and those that ignore the customers wants and needs do so at their own risk.


And not to be in any way disrespectful to those of Christian faith, but if I really wanted to get into what I understand to be the Christian message of Christmas, I would have to get far away from the bombardment of BUY, BUY, BUY messages with which the stores and commercials saturate our senses. Replacing Happy Holidays with Merry Christmas does little to soften that barrage for me. Again, I say this with no disrespect or sarcasm.

Mary


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:21 am 
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For the kanji challenged (which includes me) Meta said something like this (according to bablefish):

Quote:
Can life and love not look at the same this, is? I do not hate the people who are another religion. I love the American variety. As for our strengths there are our differences. I being your small-numbered American people, when, I respect your religion simultaneously, in addition must respect feeling to the people, you ask. This in the true sense of of freedom of the human. Already, it does one people makes feel as you, or. The life whose love is long, it is many, and year 2006 I desire in order to possess many joys between the thing. A certain thing which is we before is newer, us permit the fact that are new and begin this year improve! Exhaust all power! When your feeling is hurt, or insults, I apologize


I'm sure that's a terrible translation - but I prefer transparency over code.

:)

Happy new year to all

-Dana

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:44 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
You're good, Dana! Actually I can sift through that literal translation and sort of get it.

Ian

I hear you.

I just get upset at the side-taking and the battle. The whole Fox "War on Christmas" thing was an interesting story and theme. To some extent I agree. I do however get a little perturbed when it goes on and on.

I find myself often agreeing with Mary Chant, and wishing I knew her better. And Mary, please give your little one a hug for me. It's been a while, and I'm sure you bundle of joy is lucky to have ended up in your home.

Mary sometimes even has the courage to call me when I go a little over the top, and in a nice way. You have to respect that.

But enough of that...

You have a point, Mary. I too think "The War on Christmas" misses a big point. And that is, the message of Christmas has little to do with capitalism and a free market economy. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's. (Or something like that.) Christmas is about the birth of someone extremely important to Christianity. It isn't even the most holy of holidays, either. And as for giving things, well that comes a dozen days later with a celebration of the visit of the three wise men. We don't give gold, frankincense, and myrrh these days, but we do honor the tradition of giving. Yes, Meta, there are other roots to the holidays. Shrug... That's fine. You can celebrate those too.

Back to the theme of Christmas... The holiday season should be about giving vs. receiving, and loving family. And that family can be blood family or "extended" family. (Joseph after all wasn't caring for his own progeny.) That means I get to hug Mary, Ian, and Dana as well, and remind them how much they mean to me.

Industry does what industry does...

I do however understand Christians being incensed just a bit. Industry after all makes a TON of money on their backs. It makes sense to me that they owe Christians. The least they can do is acknowledge those who made things possible. In my world of research, it's a black smear on your reputation if you don't give credit where credit is due.

That's all I'm saying.

And it's ironic to see people making fun of others getting offended when "the offended" can be found everywhere. Politically Correct America tells us to say Happy Holidays because we don't want to offend Jewish people, Muslims, or atheists. F*** that crap! Happy Chanukah! Happy Kwanzaa! Let's remember to send best wishes to our Muslim brothers when they celebrate their holy days. And then let's all sacrifice a pig and dance naked around a fire on the Winter Solstice.

:multi: :multi: :multi:

Let's CELEBRATE our differences. I don't have to agree with everything my friends do or think to love them as if they were family. And I am cool with each following the beat of his/her own drummer.

End of rant... Thanks for your indulgence.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:46 pm 
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Location: Weymouth, MA US of A
Quote:
(Joseph after all wasn't caring for his own progeny.)


Considerable debate on this one, but for another discussion.

Gene


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:56 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I thought Jesus was Thomas Jefferson's child... :P

I'm sure you'll share the DNA results with us. ;)

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:36 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:49 pm
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Quote:
And it's ironic to see people making fun of others getting offended when "the offended" can be found everywhere. Politically Correct America tells us to say Happy Holidays because we don't want to offend Jewish people, Muslims, or atheists. F*** that crap! Happy Chanukah! Happy Kwanzaa! Let's remember to send best wishes to our Muslim brothers when they celebrate their holy days. And then let's all sacrifice a pig and dance naked around a fire on the Winter Solstice.


8) 8) 8) 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:00 pm 
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Mary

Yep, I am pretty much in agreement.

In this context, I see this matter less as religious issue and more of an error on the part of businesses that did not have as good a grasp on their customers likes and dislikes as they thought they did.

The "buy buy buy" as you so accuratly put it has pretty much eclipsed the true meaning of many traditions.

And I think its a mistake to confuse the marketing with the meaning.

Something else that you mentioned that I agree with is that at least some of the folks that get so upset about not saying "merry christmas" have overlooked is that just mouthing the words--in order to sell product --is not really what the season is about.

(an excellent point BTW)

Then again, at least some of the folks that got so upset were more angry about being told that they could NOT say it than they care about the meaning behind the words anyway.

Telling folks that they can't do something is always a good way to get people angry.


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