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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:33 am 
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eastcoast_bsc wrote:
Your country? mmm. I was born here and I served in the military, so I guess that makes it my country also. The country was founded on Judeo-christian values system. In addition could you show me where in the constitution where it explicitly states that there should be a seperation of church and state?


Don't even go there...
:roll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation ... _and_state

and generally,you know who always fights this particular arguement?

Christians.

I wonder why?
Could be perhaps because...
They want a Theocracy?
Yay! Let's marry the Church and State!
~Because a theocracy would be neat-O!! :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:38 am 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Quote:
Light the organic Kwanza tree


I have yet to meet a black guy who actually celebrates Kwanza. Most do the christmas thing.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:58 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
Quote:
Christianity appears to be growing in America every year. This should make every American very, very, very, afraid.


Meta, according to the U.S. Census, the percentage of Americans self-identifying as Christian dropped 9% between 1990 and 2001, from 86% to 77%. Check out U.S. Census Bureau, Statistical Abstract of the United States: 2004-2005 (pdf format).

When you say Christians want a theocracy, I assume you mean the far-right fringe. My guess is that most Christians would just like to see our culture cleaned up a little. In the past few decades, American society has grown markedly ruder, crasser, more violent, and more promiscuous, and all those traits have been glorified in our popular culture. I think Christians would like to see those traits rolled back some, and as an agnostic who recently had a baby who I'll be raising in this culture, I don't disagree with them.

I'm wondering: are people of non-Christian faiths in America actually *offended* by Christmas and its attendant decorations and displays? I'm not offended by menorahs or other artifacts of various faiths' celebrations. What exactly is the big deal? I get the distinct feeling that the types that sue to have Nativity scenes taken down simply get off on being contrarian (I'm looking at you, ACLU).

I guess I'm just sort of annoyed by the apparent notion that any holiday or celebration observed by 1 or more Americans deserves equal time. If 77% of Americans are Christian, doesn't it make perfect sense that Christmas gets the lion's share of the attention? And that Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, et al. get decreasing amounts of recognition as a function of the number of people who observe them?

As I mentioned, I'm agnostic, so to some extent this is a devil's advocate type of argument. And when you say Christianity is not being persecuted in the U.S., I agree with you, except where the mainstream media are concerned (every store in the land has a giant Christmas display up the day after Halloween, Christmas lights and trees are everywhere, etc.).

I'm not sure I even have a point. But in case my political leanings are not prominent enough on my sleeve, I'll leave you with this article on CNN.com:

Tiptoeing Around 'Merry Christmas', er, 'Happy Holidays'

Number of times author uses the word "conservative" or "conservatives": 4

Number of times the author uses the word "liberal" or "liberals": 0 (the time the word "Liberal" appears in the title of a book s/he disparages doesn't count)

From the article:

Quote:
Fanning the flames are conservative talk show personalities bemoaning the secularization of Christmas. Fox News anchor John Gibson chimed in with a book "The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday is Worse than You Thought."

~ snip ~

Bah humbug, said radio talk show host Bill Press, author of "How the Republicans Stole Christmas."


Notice how John Gibson is labeled as "conservative" and identified as a "Fox News anchor" (we all know what a bunch of wingnuts those Fox News personalities are, right?), while Bill Press, who's as liberal as Michael Moore, is simply a "radio talk show host..." not a "liberal", not a "Huffington Post blogger" or "left-wing talk radio host."

And this is just a generic Reuters article that CNN.com picked up; doesn't even have a byline. Nope, no liberal bias in the media. Please disperse; nothing to see here.

-Doug


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:01 am 
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Location: Boston area
Its a little Bush league quoting Wickpedia, don't you think? Again, I repeat, I was born here and I served my country and I will stand up for it. Did you serve your country? The clause you quoted from Wickpedia clearly states that the Govt shall establish no religion. It does not in any sense, mean that all religion should be banned from Public and private, as you infer.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:58 am 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Christianity growing in america isnt scary.

What is scary is FUNDAMENTALIST christianity is also growing as well. There should be a way to safe gaurd.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:36 pm 
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Doug Erickson wrote:


Meta, according to the U.S. Census, the percentage of Americans self-identifying as Christian dropped 9% between 1990 and 2001, from 86% to 77%. Check out U.S. Census Bureau, Statistical Abstract of the United States: 2004-2005 (pdf format).

Meta:
Thanks for that. Excellent stuff. :D
The data I culled reported general "Belief in God" and included "Non-practicing" Christians, or those whom follow the mindset of Judeo-Christian philosophy, yet do not practice it. However for the purposes of this conversation, I'll defer to the U.S. Census' data as you have pointed out.

Doug Erickson wrote:

When you say Christians want a theocracy, I assume you mean the far-right fringe.


Meta: Yes.
I perhaps erred by not mentioning the differing factions.
I should strive to avoid generalizations in this case.

Doug Erickson wrote:

My guess is that most Christians would just like to see our culture cleaned up a little.


Meta: Agreed.

Doug Erickson wrote:

In the past few decades, American society has grown markedly ruder, crasser, more violent, and more promiscuous.


Meta: I am not certain that the data would indicate an uptrend in violence, however since I cannot say for certain, I'd have to leave this portion open for now.
On the issue with ruder, crasser, and more promiscuous
This would appear to be personal preferences.
When you say "ruder and crasser", what specifically do you mean?
As for "more promiscuous, I'd ask that you'd also clarify this point, for I think there is perhaps a large variation of thought when it comes to individual people's idea of
"promiscuous."

Doug Erickson wrote:

and all those traits have been glorified in our popular culture.


Meta: Is your argument to say that the media is responsible for these, as you say "unsavory elements", or just bolsters them?

Doug Erickson wrote:

I think Christians would like to see those traits rolled back some.


Meta: Undoubtedly, but "rolled back" to what? Going back to
"The Good old days" may not be such a good thing. There was much more inequity in the "Good 'ol days" than now.


Doug Erickson wrote:
and as an agnostic who recently had a baby who I'll be raising in this culture, I don't disagree with them.


Meta: Even if the world around you becomes a Utopia or Living hell, studies show that your child's personality will largely be determined by the first 3-5 years of life.
So for those who blame the T.V. (I am not including you at this point) I say, shut it off, and play, read, and teach with your child as much as possible, and I would say to the extent that you may have to sacrifice things such as T.V., Video games, music, reading for yourself, etc, the time spent with a child is an investment that society will ultimately reap the rewards of.

Doug Erickson wrote:

I'm wondering: are people of non-Christian faiths in America actually *offended* by Christmas and its attendant decorations and displays? I'm not offended by menorahs or other artifacts of various faiths' celebrations. What exactly is the big deal? I get the distinct feeling that the types that sue to have Nativity scenes taken down simply get off on being contrarian (I'm looking at you, ACLU).

Meta:
You are right. There are extremists both ways.
I have 100% NO issue with things like that, as long as:

1. It's on private property
2. No one is encroaching on my personal right NOT to have to be subject to it if I don't have to. (Ie, as long as I have the right to walk away when I get bored.)

Doug Erickson wrote:

I guess I'm just sort of annoyed by the apparent notion that any holiday or celebration observed by 1 or more Americans deserves equal time. If 77% of Americans are Christian, doesn't it make perfect sense that Christmas gets the lion's share of the attention?


Meta: Perhaps. However I am inclined to say that views held by the majority doesn't necessarily facilitate correctness.

Doug Erickson wrote:

I'm not sure I even have a point. But in case my political leanings are not prominent enough on my sleeve, I'll leave you with this article on CNN.com:

Tiptoeing Around 'Merry Christmas', er, 'Happy Holidays'

Number of times author uses the word "conservative" or "conservatives": 4

Number of times the author uses the word "liberal" or "liberals": 0 (the time the word "Liberal" appears in the title of a book s/he disparages doesn't count)

From the article:

Quote:
Fanning the flames are conservative talk show personalities bemoaning the secularization of Christmas. Fox News anchor John Gibson chimed in with a book "The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday is Worse than You Thought."

~ snip ~

Bah humbug, said radio talk show host Bill Press, author of "How the Republicans Stole Christmas."


Notice how John Gibson is labeled as "conservative" and identified as a "Fox News anchor" (we all know what a bunch of wingnuts those Fox News personalities are, right?), while Bill Press, who's as liberal as Michael Moore, is simply a "radio talk show host..." not a "liberal", not a "Huffington Post blogger" or "left-wing talk radio host."

And this is just a generic Reuters article that CNN.com picked up; doesn't even have a byline. Nope, no liberal bias in the media. Please disperse; nothing to see here.

-Doug


Meta:
It's human nature.
We simply adore labeling things and people.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:42 pm 
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eastcoast_bsc wrote:
Its a little Bush league quoting Wickpedia, don't you think?


Meta: Yes.
However I was rushed for time and grabbed it off the top of my head.
:oops:

eastcoast_bsc wrote:
Again, I repeat, I was born here and I served my country and I will stand up for it. Did you serve your country?


Meta: Yes. For three very interesting years.

eastcoast_bsc wrote:
The clause you quoted from Wickpedia clearly states that the Govt shall establish no religion. It does not in any sense, mean that all religion should be banned from Public and private, as you infer.


Meta: Being pressed for time (and who isn't these days) I could definitely formulate an argument on why the founding fathers intention was to keep religion separate regardless of what people want, but instead I'll ask you:

Would you like to live in a country where where the Church decides the laws in which you and your children live?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:45 pm 
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AAAhmed46 wrote:
There should be a way to safe gaurd.


Meta:
Ah, but there is, my friend!
It's called being reasonable, scientific method, logic, and the promotion of critical thinking.
:wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:27 pm 
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Posts: 1221
Meta

Not kidding now.

Not angry or anything like that--just don't have the time.

Seriously

I can't keep having a discussion if we can't keep it togather.

Giving you just ONE example here.

In your last post to me you said:

"So governments don't usually tax something they are persecuting.
This was a rebuttal to your arguement that Christains are not being tolerated"

I never said ANYTHING about the governement persucuting Christains.

I said the media.

Your not only miscasting and mis-characterizing my arguements.

Your putting words in my mouth.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to go thu and correct all the other errors and mis-characteriztions you made in last the run down.

I have no problem continueing this discussion--as long as we can agree to keep things accurate and on-point.

Like I said above--not angry or hacked at all.

I just don't have the time or interest to parse thu and correct, re-correct and re-state my points.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:55 pm 
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AAAhmed46 wrote:
Christianity growing in america isnt scary.

What is scary is FUNDAMENTALIST christianity is also growing as well.


Good point. Taking it a step further, the problems aren't from Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews, etc. The problems come from rabid fundamentalists... of all ilks! It seems that all to often, those who are the strictest "fundamentalists" of their religion show the least tolerance for anyone who has a differing view, religion, outlook. On the most basic level, just about every religion espouses an attitude of tolerance and peace. Unfortunately, some folks, regardless of their claims of their religious beliefs, get side-tracked and ignore those parts of their religion that admonish them to promote tolerance and peace.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:32 pm 
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cxt wrote:
Meta
Your not only miscasting and mis-characterizing my arguments.

Your putting words in my mouth.


Technically, since we are not using our mouths to communicate, that's impossible.
More accurately, since thoughts guide the fingers on the keyboard, and then they are displayed electronically, then actually what may be closer to describe our interchange is closer to a limited version of telepathy.
So the question is...
Am I putting words in your mind?
8O
(Twilight Zone music is heard in the distance)

cxt wrote:
I just don't have the time or interest to parse thu and correct, re-correct and re-state my points.


-or spelling.
:lol:

Wow..8O ..that certainly was a an "El-cheapo" shot..
~even for moi!
:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:02 pm 
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Meta

What can I say?

I'm a verbal guy trying to stay afloat in an electonic medium.

Then again, I was able to correctly read, comprehend, and answer you without any misquoting or mis-characterization on my part.

I chose to be sloppy with my spelling, rather than be sloppy with my arguements, sloppy with my atribution and sloppy with my logic.

Clearly you made different choices..............;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:04 pm 
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Panther wrote:
AAAhmed46 wrote:
Christianity growing in america isnt scary.

What is scary is FUNDAMENTALIST christianity is also growing as well.


Good point. Taking it a step further, the problems aren't from Christians, Moslems, Hindus, Jews, etc. The problems come from rabid fundamentalists... of all ilks! It seems that all to often, those who are the strictest "fundamentalists" of their religion show the least tolerance for anyone who has a differing view, religion, outlook. On the most basic level, just about every religion espouses an attitude of tolerance and peace. Unfortunately, some folks, regardless of their claims of their religious beliefs, get side-tracked and ignore those parts of their religion that admonish them to promote tolerance and peace.


BOOYA!
Pin-Pon!!
Bingo!!
Ding-Ding-Ding!
(Give that man a see-gar!)
:D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:06 pm 
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cxt wrote:
Meta

What can I say?

I'm a verbal guy trying to stay afloat in an electonic medium.

Then again, I was able to correctly read, comprehend, and answer you without any misquoting or mis-characterization on my part.

I chose to be sloppy with my spelling, rather than be sloppy with my arguements, sloppy with my atribution and sloppy with my logic.

Clearly you made different choices..............;)


Well!
I guess you showed me what's what, didn't you!
:oops:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:20 pm 
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Meta

No, what I did was make a polite request and observation
that in order to have a quality discusson, the arguements and statements people make need to be kept accurate.

If your not going to try and do so--why bother with a discussion at all?

If your making up both sides of conversation anyway--you don't really need anyone else.

Don't mean "you" personally---I'm using "you" in generic fashion.


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