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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:26 pm 
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Ga. high school defends expulsion
Private religious facility says actions constitutionally protected
By DYANA BAGBY | Jan 11, 10:58 AM

A private Christian school in Loganville, Ga., claims it had the constitutional right to expel a student after administrators learned she shared a lesbian kiss with a student at a slumber party and was also involved in a sexual relationship with another female student.




Covenant Christian Academy said it was constitutionally protected when it made the decision to expel Bradley for "committing the major offense of sexual immorality." The school’s Jan. 4 response came after former student Jessica Bradley, 15, and her father, Ron Bradley, sued the school Dec. 2 in Gwinnett Superior Court for $1 million.

The school expelled Bradley after learning April 26 about her off-campus lesbian relationships. The Bradleys now live in Pennsylvania.

CCA states in court records it is protected by the First Amendment and "ecclesiastical abstention" that prohibits courts from forcing a religious organization to define its beliefs.

"The free exercise and establishment clauses of the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution, consistent with the Georgia constitution and other applicable law of this state, require ecclesiastical abstention and prohibit this court from inquiring into plaintiff’s claims concerning a religious organization’s doctrinal determinations governing the discipline of its students for sexual immorality in violation of the Biblical/Christian lifestyle expectations for students attending faith-based CCA," CCA stated in its response.

"The school is saying that it has the constitutional right to ban gays," said David Clark, attorney for the Bradleys.

Officials with CCA did not return calls seeking comment.









http://www.sovo.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=4495


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:32 pm 
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Why would a Lesbian even want to belong to such a school? Heck at her age maybee she was just experimenting.

I say that as long as the school refunds the big $$$$ they must have paid for tuition, the girl and dad need to move on.

As much as I feel a person has the right to live the way they wan't, I also feel a religious institution can dictate the way a school is run, and the type of students they carry.

That said, I want to express the sorrow I feel for the young girl who has to be alienated from her friends at this school. All this because she likes to kiss girls? There are pleanty of folks here in the secular world who have no problem with you sweet heart.. be who you are.


Last edited by benzocaine on Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:04 pm 
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I suppose that one could argue that the school may have been legally entitled to their decision to ban this young woman for her actions IF:

The school had outlined their standards of conduct specifically mentioning the behavior in question as one of their policies and grounds for expulsion in writing, with signatures of both the girl's parents and the girl herself agreeing to it.

As I understand it, according to the law, the school cannot ban individuals expressly on the grounds that they admit they are a homosexual, however they *perhaps* can, as a standard, prohibit an enrolled student from engaging in activities associated with homosexuality.

But then again, wouldn't they then have to disallow heterosexual activities as well?

Something smells a bit rotten here.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:33 pm 
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It's private school, Meta. People pay BIG bucks (trust me...) to raise kids in a manner of their choosing vs. the homogenized way the government forces it down their throats.

It's one thing to be oriented a certain way. It's another to have a student or students admit to activity. And that activity happens to be against what the school stands for.

People should have the right to congregate with like-minded people, particularly where personal beliefs are involved. These girls can wait to express their sexuality - just like heterosexuals. And truth be told, there are laws against minors engaging in sexual activity of ANY kind.

I'll go to my lesbian friends' weddings, but I suport this PRIVATE school 100%. I say leave them the hell alone.

If you want to go to school in a place where the nanny state tells you what you can or cannot do because that is the politically correct thing to do, well go to public school - FOR FREE!

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:02 pm 
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Quote:
Metablade-"But then again, wouldn't they then have to disallow heterosexual activities as well?"


That's a good point. It seems that they are on a slippery slope. How can you expell here for homosexual behaviors when surely, there are young teens engaging in hetero-sexual behaviors? Both are considered imoral in the bible, except for hetero being accepted when people are married.

I won't mention the various hetero sexual practiced that are considered immoral by many churches :oops:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:05 pm 
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Bill Glasheen wrote:
It's private school, Meta. People pay BIG bucks (trust me...) to raise kids in a manner of their choosing vs. the homogenized way the government forces it down their throats.

Meta: While I am not certain that a religious private school is any better than a secular private school, I'll agree with you that public schools, for the most part are horrid.

Bill Glasheen wrote:
It's one thing to be oriented a certain way. It's another to have a student or students admit to activity.


Meta: See, that bugs me, in that I am fairly certain it was other mean spirited/brainwashed students who "turned" the girl in. Oh No! We can't have the devil in our schools! (Says the Dad of a student while he surfs the net for porn.)

Ehhh...waddaya gonna do, eh?

Bill Glasheen wrote:
....And that activity happens to be against what the school stands for.


Meta: Ah! Here we possible have something..Did the school make those standards known? Or was it taken for granted that since God hates Gays, then obviously a kisser on the lipper of the fellow sister is the SPAWN OF SAAAAAATAAAAN!!???? or were there codes of conduct, rules, standards, etc...
Did they have a zero tolerance policy in place? (Ludicrous as it would be)
Did the girl know she was breaking the rules?
What about forgiveness? compassion? Turning the other cheek? It seems like they simply said:

"Kissed a girl.."
"unclean wretch.."
"eject!"

Bill Glasheen wrote:
People should have the right to congregate with like-minded people, particularly where personal beliefs are involved.


Meta: So, If I wanted to open a private Neo-Nazi school across from your house, and only allowed pasty-blonde-blue-eyed folks to attend, and if it was discovered that one of the students was actually 1/10 Jewish, and they were expelled with dishonor, then you'd be ok with that?

Or, if someone bought the house across the street, and then hosted a social club in which you must be African American in order to join?

Or if a Dojo opened up near you, but only Asians could join.

Or if a fitness club opened up next door, but men were expressly forbidden?
Oh wait, there is such a place..It's called Curves.

Bill Glasheen wrote:
These girls can wait to express their sexuality - just like heterosexuals. And truth be told, there are laws against minors engaging in sexual activity of ANY kind.


Meta: True, but that's a weak argument and you know it.
:P
If one thinks that a law will or has ever stopped teenagers from having sex, one is a bit naive.
Heck, did it stop YOU?
:lol:

Bill Glasheen wrote:
I'll go to my lesbian friends' weddings, but I support this PRIVATE school 100%.


Meta: That sounds a lot like: "I have LOTS of black friends!...heck, some of my best friends are black."

Bill Glasheen wrote:
If you want to go to school in a place where the nanny state tells you what you can or cannot do because that is the politically correct thing to do, well go to public school - FOR FREE!


Meta: Oh, I get it!! One has gotta pay to keep their child away from the influences of us plebian freaks, weirdos, amoral thugs, losers, low lifes, scum bags and...(insert racial slur of your choice)
(I know you didn't meant it that way Bill, but it sure sounds like it.)
:wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:24 pm 
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Heck, I'm still waiting for those school vouchers we were told about years ago.

I wan't my son in montessori school :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:47 pm 
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Meta

I don't know--how fair is it that my tax dollars are used to fund "girls only" schools?
Schools that I can't attend because of my gender.

A private school has the right to establish whatever rules of conduct that they wish.

I personally could care less about 2 girls kissing etc, or 2 boys for that matter, or a stright couple etc.

If the rules state that is an offense punishable by dismissel then that's the breaks.

As long as the rules are enforced on a level playing field, there does not seem to be much of a problem.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:20 pm 
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cxt wrote:
Meta

I don't know--how fair is it that my tax dollars are used to fund "girls only" schools?
Schools that I can't attend because of my gender.


Meta: I think that it isn't fair, so I agree with you.
BTW, which school are we talking about?

cxt wrote:
A private school has the right to establish whatever rules of conduct that they wish.


Meta: As long as the rules are within the law.
Example: As far as I know, you could not have a school which explicitly bars Asian students.
Or to go to an extreme:
You could not have a school which allows hardcore porn to be shown in the library or martinis served instead of milk in the lunchroom.

cxt wrote:
If the rules state that is an offense punishable by dismissel then that's the breaks.


Meta: Right, but it was not determined (at least in this post) if such a rule was in place and the students are aware of it.
As benzocaine mentioned, perhaps she was experimenting.
This is a child after all. Perhaps she was naive enough not to know that it was against her teachings.
Believe it or not, I do know some teenagers who are this naive. (Bless their hearts)

cxt wrote:
As long as the rules are enforced on a level playing field, there does not seem to be much of a problem.


Meta: My point exactly.
However it appears as though they are not.
It indeed looks like unapologetic, unabashed discrimination, and ultimately, I'll bet it has to do with school finance.


Hey, I know how these things work!
I've seen "School of Rock"!
:lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:26 pm 
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benzocaine wrote:
Heck, I'm still waiting for those school vouchers we were told about years ago.

I wan't my son in montessori school :wink:


Hmmm.
I don't know enough about it to form an opinion one way or the other, but from my brief glance at some of their website, I don't see anything which is too outlandish or far fetched or unreasonable.

What do you think about this school?
:?:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:05 pm 
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-Metablade- wrote:
benzocaine wrote:
Heck, I'm still waiting for those school vouchers we were told about years ago.

I wan't my son in montessori school :wink:


Hmmm.
I don't know enough about it to form an opinion one way or the other, but from my brief glance at some of their website, I don't see anything which is too outlandish or far fetched or unreasonable.

What do you think about this school?
:?:


I think those schools look good actually :) The wink was because those schools are non religious.

From what I understand they focus on the child and allow them to develop at there own speed. Fast in the case of my son :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:55 pm 
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Meh!

Ah don' need none 'o dem dere high flah-lutin' fainseh, frilleh, puhraivait skools fo mai chilluns!!

Just toss 'em out baick w'thn th' dogs an' other critters an' such, theyall be just faihn!
Hyuk!

Image

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:03 am 
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Meta

You are REALLY good at this strawman argument thing. But I'm not gonna let you get away with it. ;)

Meta wrote:

Here we possible have something..Did the school make those standards known? Or was it taken for granted that since God hates Gays, ....

Stop right there!!!!!

Woah there, bucko! What Christian God do you know of that hates gays? Where on earth (or from heaven) do you get this stuff from?

It's been a long time since I've been in parochial school or in a church. But I know for damn sure that Christians teach us to love everyone, and teach that God loves everyone in spite of whom they are or what they do. This is clearly a case where the act - and not the orientation - is what got them punished.
Meta wrote:

So, If I wanted to open a private Neo-Nazi school across from your house, and only allowed pasty-blonde-blue-eyed folks to attend

Stop right there!!!!!

It's the sexual acts - and not the orientation - that got them kicked out.
Meta wrote:

If one thinks that a law will or has ever stopped teenagers from having sex, one is a bit naive.

Heck, did it stop YOU?

As a matter of fact, it did. And it wasn't for a lack of trying. :evil: :lol:

How would you feel, Meta, if a male adult was found having sex with one of these underage girls? Or how do you feel about priests having sex with altar boys? Someone would be calling to have these adults' testicles cut off.

It is NO LESS serious when an underage child has sex with an underage child. There's a time to be a child, and a time to be an adult. No matter what the orientation or hormone level, we need to protect children from engaging in certain physical activites before their brains catch up with their balls or their ovaries. With kids maturing faster today from excessive nutrition, the whole hormone rage thing is even more difficult to handle. But that doesn't make the problem any less serious. On the contrary, it's all the more reason to tell young kids to postpone these decisions as long as possible.

These days the consequences can be pretty serious. Ever heard of DEATH??? It happens. Just ask a number of my classmates who died in their twenties.

There should be no wine until it's time.

******

Just to give you perspective on the magnitude of this... I went to Phillips Exeter Academy. Not sure if you've heard of it... Guys were regularly kicked out of school for what we thought (at the time) were the most stupid things. One guy was booted because he was stupid enough to call the laundry and ask them please to remove the baggie with the green stuff from his blue jeans pocket. Another guy was kicked out because some friends picked him up and took him for a ride around town while sipping some wine. Another dude got kicked out when he was caught playing bouncy on a girl in his dorm room.

We're talking booted - with no coming back. Gone. Permanent.

Yes, there was a book of rules. Yes, ALL these schools make it pretty clear up front what the expectations are. They HAVE to, because there's always some parent who knows an attorney who wants to challenge it when their kid gets kicked out. And these will be the same parents who will rake the school over the coals whenever something bad happens to the kid and it was later discovered that rules were not enforced.

Rules are rules, and you sign up front that you will abide by them. If you don't enforce rules, then the rules are useless. Ask any judge.

The consequences are made known to all.

Most people don't read the rules, but that's their problem. Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law. It most certainly should NOT be an excuse in private school of all places. Parents send their kids to such exclusive places because they expect standards to be different. So let's not get up in arms when folks get what they paid for.

You are the liberatarian, Meta, right? Is this really YOUR business? And does anyone complaining have a legal leg to stand on here?

As for person A ratting on person B, well... It *****. I've had it happen to me. That unfortunately is life.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:56 am 
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Bill Glasheen wrote:
Meta

Meta wrote:

Here we possible have something..Did the school make those standards known? Or was it taken for granted that since God hates Gays, ....

Stop right there!!!!!

Woah there, bucko! What Christian God do you know of that hates gays? Where on earth (or from heaven) do you get this stuff from?


Meta: Why, the Bible of course!

Genesis

God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah. 19:4-5, 24-25

Leviticus

Homosexual acts are an abomination to God. 18:22

If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. 20:13

Deuteronomy
Women are not to wear men's clothing -- it's an "abomination unto the Lord." 22:5

(They have a special hell just for you, Bill.)

:lol: :lol:

1 Kings

God shows his homophobia by calling gay people "sodomites" and their sexual relations "abominations." 14:24

Asa "did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD" by expelling homosexuals (or "sodomites", as the good book calls them). 15:12

Jehoshaphat "did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord" and "took" the homosexuals (sodomites) "out of the land," or as the RSV says, "he exterminated" them. 22:43, 46

God says not be bring any whore, sodomite, or dog into the house of the Lord. For "these things are an abomination to the Lord." Sodomites and dogs are biblical names for homosexuals. 23:17-18


Romans

With his usual intolerance, Paul condemns homosexuals (including lesbians). This is the only clear reference to lesbians in the Bible. 1:26-28

Homosexuals (those "without natural affection") and their supporters (those "that have pleasure in them") are "worthy of death." 1:31-32

1 Corinthians

Paul lists ten things that will keep you out of heaven, including homosexuality and being "effeminate."

And etc, etc, ...Heck, I'm just getting warmed up!

Yes...indeed I think it's fair to say that God doesn't care for gays too much.

Bill Glasheen wrote:
It's been a long time since I've been in parochial school or in a church. But I know for damn sure that Christians teach us to love everyone, and teach that God loves everyone in spite of


Meta: No, you try to love everyone because you are a good, decent human being Bill, not because the Bible told you.

Romans

"The wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. 1:18-20

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. 16:17

2 Thessalonians
Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire." 1:7-9

Timothy

Paul instructs Timothy to avoid science, especially that which disagrees with him ("science falsely so called"). Other versions translate this phrase as "false knowledge", which may be more correct. However many fundamentalist Christians still use this verse ("science falsely so called") to justify their rejection of any idea, scientific or otherwise, they believe contradicts the bible. 6:20

Hebrews

Every skeptic and nonbeliever has "an evil heart of unbelief." 3:12


1 John

Every non-Christian is liar and an antichrist. 2:22, 4:2-3

2 John

Don't associate with non-Christians. Don't receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 10

Jude

God destroys non-believers. 1:5

Revelation

False Jews are members of "the synagogue of Satan." 2:9

Whoever isn't found listed in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. 20:15

All liars, as well as sorcerers, idolaters, and those who are fearful or unbelieving, will be cast into "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." 21:8

"Dogs [homosexuals?], sorcerers, whoremongers, idolaters" and along with anyone who ever told a lie will not enter the heavenly city. 22:15

Meta wrote:

So, If I wanted to open a private Neo-Nazi school across from your house, and only allowed pasty-blonde-blue-eyed folks to attend

Bill Glasheen wrote:
Stop right there!!!!!

It's the sexual acts - and not the orientation - that got them kicked out.


Meta: How's about just answering the question?


Bill Glasheen wrote:
How would you feel, Meta, if a male adult was found having sex with one of these underage girls? Or how do you feel about priests having sex with altar boys?


Meta: I have a teenage daughter, whom I have raised to wait until marriage, and so far I am confidant that will happen. But if she decides against my advice and
HOLY COMMANDMENTS to have sex anyway, I really can't do jack about it.

Bill Glasheen wrote:
It is NO LESS serious when an underage child has sex with an underage child. There's a time to be a child, and a time to be an adult. No matter what the orientation or hormone level, we need to protect children from engaging in certain physical activites before their brains catch up with their balls or their ovaries.


Meta: Funny, but if nature wanted humans to wait until 18 solar cycles, then why are they sexually mature at around age 12? Our society, (Only within the last 80 years or so) has placed the age limit. In other countries, and even in our own not so long ago, the age of marriage was significantly lower.

Bill Glasheen wrote:
With kids maturing faster today from excessive nutrition, the whole hormone rage thing is even more difficult to handle.


Meta: Ok, now you are combining a theory of excessive nutrition with excessive hormones and rage?
WTF?
(If you cite Pubmed on this, I'll send you an exploding cool-whip bomb!)
Pubmeb is still licking it's wounds recently.

Bill Glasheen wrote:
But that doesn't make the problem any less serious. On the contrary, it's all the more reason to tell young kids to postpone these decisions as long as possible.


Meta: I agree of course, but that doesn't mean that the vast percentage of teens don't and aren't having sex. It's just not reality.

Bill Glasheen wrote:
These days the consequences can be pretty serious. Ever heard of DEATH??? It happens. Just ask a number of my classmates who died in their twenties.


Meta: You sound like my sex ed teacher, when discussing STD's. OOO! Can I have a pamphlet!?

Bill Glasheen wrote:
There should be no wine until it's time.


Meta: Unless you are Orson Wells, in which case you can guzzle as much as you want until you explode!
:lol:
******

Bill Glasheen wrote:
Yes, there was a book of rules. Yes, ALL these schools make it pretty clear up front what the expectations are.


Meta: That's my point.
We don't know that for sure. If the rules were made known to the students, and they specifically mentioned this issue, then I have no problem. But if the school blindsided the parents after the fact, then the school is clearly wrong..

Bill Glasheen wrote:
You are the liberatarian, Meta, right? Is this really YOUR business? And does anyone complaining have a legal leg to stand on here?


Meta: I really don't know *what* I am, (besides a know-it-all jackass.)
:lol:
:

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:56 am 
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I don't have a lot of confidence with someone quoting the Bible. The Church (of any faith) exists in the context of its time. The Bible - while considered an authoritarian document by many - is clearly anachronistic. I should no more take it literally than I should take that move literally in a Goju kata where I reach behind the back of the (Chinese) person's head and yank his pony tail.

All churches have leaders who interpret and re-interpret their doctrine and dogma with respect to the times. I don't know where you were raised, Meta. But I was taught repeatedly that it was THE ACT and not THE PERSON that was an abomination. Even these A-holes here in Richmond who slaughtered a whole family with two little girls on New Years day (after binding them with duct tape) deserve humane treatment before their day of reckoning. Not that I'm not thinking of stuff...

Whether or not a Christian or Muslim or Jewish or whatever faith wants to view certain sexual acts as reasonable or not isn't my business so long as they treat people humanely and stay out of my business if I stay out of their's. I don't get worked up if they want to teach in bible class that God made the earth in 7 days and a woman should obey her man. (Or then again... Oh never mind.)

And I MOST DEFINITELY do NOT have a problem with any private school punishing children for having sex. Rules are rules. If you want to change the law and the rules, then work on it. But right now children aren't supposed to be having sex. There are very good reasons for that, Meta.

1) Someone might get pregnant. Fair is fair... If girls can have sex with girls, then boys should be able to have sex with them. We can't discriminate, you know... And we already have enough problems in this country with children having children. It's one sure way to keep women in a cycle of poverty, and young men at risk for going to prison.

2) Someone might get an STD. These days, HIV, HPV and herpes are permanent. Two out of the three of those can kill you. And they are epidemic. This is a serious matter, Meta, whether or not you want to make light of it. And it doesn't discriminate on the basis of gender or sexual orientation.

It's well known that boys especially don't fully develop in the judgment centers until their mid twenties. At least women mature earlier in that regard. But the least we can do is to encourage children to wait.

No, Meta, we can't stop people from doing what isn't right. But that doesn't mean you give up. You wouldn't give up on your own daughter, would you? And you wouldn't expect children to follow rules if there weren't consequences for breaking them, would you?

This has nothing to do with religion. This is a matter of common sense and public health.

Meta wrote:

Bill wrote:

It's been a long time since I've been in parochial school or in a church. But I know for damn sure that Christians teach us to love everyone, and teach that God loves everyone in spite of

Meta: No, you try to love everyone because you are a good, decent human being Bill, not because the Bible told you.

If I'm not mistaken, YOU are PREACHING to me, Meta. How ironic!

It's my right as a human to love or hate whomever I want. It is Judeo-Christian teaching that teaches us to love people regardless. And I'm going to do what I do because of what I believe based upon the net of my upbringing.

I'm really surprised you would make light of one of the most positive aspects of Judeo-Christian teaching. It's frankly the only thing remaining from my years in various churches. And that's not a bad outcome.

- Bill


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