Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:24 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17219
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Gene wrote:

Yes you do get a benefit from it Bill...when it works. You get the benefit of a well educated populice that strives to climb the next mountain to attain its goals.

Yes, you are right, Gene. I misspoke.

And this is another reason (other than the fact that I'm getting taxed for public school salaries) why I feel I have a right to speak up. Poor peformance in schools across the country affects us all.

Two points for you.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
Wow... This is a very interesting discussion. And it is timely considering my new career is in this field.

I spent over 30 years in heavy industry so know how the business world works. The last three years I have been transitioning into the world of public high schools. I cannot match Mike's background in the field but do have some thoughts. I went to a Catholic school for grade school and am familiar with having my knuckles rapped with a ruler by Sister Mary Irene. Ouch! So, I have the parochial/public scool experience as well.

Our family deliberately moved into a home in an area blessed with great public schools. Both of our kids flourished and are now decent and productive members of society. Having a girl and a boy only 2 years apart did give me some perpsective on the issue of feminizing the boys... I saw it first hand.

Part of the problem is that most of the teachers are women. That is not a bad thing but my son and daughter were treated differently. There was no tolerance for 'boys being boys'. This is not an uncommon observation in our circle of friends. The few male teachers the kids had did not seem to have this bias. There is a need for more men in the classroom.

The HS I work at is very blue collar and whites are in the minority. This is not an issue at all. The issue I see is where the kids have no adult male presence at home. These kids need the direction of male role models in school. The female teachers try to feminize the boys. The male teachers show them how men are supposed to behave. That is a very different approach.

Last year the school experienced an increase in behavioral problems. The admin staff made a consious decision to use the male staff in a much more visible way. The men now get more hall duty and the like. Instead of a break they are out in the halls, lunch rooms, study areas... just being there. Kind of like the WalMart greater. Say hi to every student you see. Check everyone for passes. Walk with them and chat. The effect has been remarkable.

The school sends a lot of the at risk kids to the JROTC program. It really squares away these borderline cases and I believe saves a lot of them from a future of futility. To accomplish this the JROTC instructors put in hundreds of hours a year on outside activities. The kids cannot get in trouble on a weekend if they are out orienteering or drilling. And peer pressure works as well. Be a screw up and out you go.

To Mike's point I see most of the teachers putting in a lot of extra hours. They all seem to really care about the kids whether they are in AP classes or special ed. But it does frustrate them when there is no support from the parents.

Having a science/math background is important to the school system. Even more important is that I am a male of the species.

With any luck I'll get a chance to be a full time male role model soon.

Rich

_________________
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:40 pm
Posts: 3700
I don't believe that teachers are the only reason for boys grades dropping as from my experience parents are as much to blame. My wife and I always get to know the teachers in elementary school, and we are in email contact with the ones in Middle School. We are very active in our kids education which means we make sure they are doing what they should at home and at school. The response from the teachers has always been excellent with all of them taking an interest in our kids even after they've moved up a grade. We also donate money to our kids class so the teacher doesn't have to buy classroom supplies with cash out of their own pockets and can do their job. We've been lucky to always get the strict but fair lady teachers.

From what I can tell from talking with educators schools are a place where parents drop the kid off and forget about them until Johnny's grades are in the toilet. Then the involvement is blaming the teacher, begging to raise the kids grades and anything else except taking responsibility for the situation.

Rich, the boys need more role models. My kids have always enjoyed their male teachers.

_________________
I was dreaming of the past...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Mike K.

You, like Bill and others have the right answer to education, and that's getting involved by helping your kids, working with the teachers and not against them, and supporting the system they are in and the choices they make. This is what education is all about. I wish that all parents took this course of action, but alas, that's not the case.

Rich,

I know we have had our spats, but I commend you for getting into education at the school that you have chosen. It's a whole different world from what you were accustomed. I too, went from the trades into education and I think that makes a better teacher all around. Your life experiences sometimes means much more than another algebra test.

Ah... Bill,

First of all, let me apologize for coming across the way I did, bad day yesterday and I wasn't as tactful as I thought I was being.


<I challenge you, Mike, to start back at the beginning of this thread, and read it carefully. This was a fairly civil thread amongst concerned parents who care about their kids. Then you stepped in, and the tenor changed for the worse. Am I wrong? >

See above; however, I think you need to re-read what you write in this and other threads. You have a way of putting people into one lump some and throw it out there. There are bad teachers and lawyers out there, no question, but not all of us fit into that category. Just like there are bad researchers.


<I don't apologize for my political views, nor should I. I don't apologize for the fact that I demand the best for my kids. I don't apologize for the fact that I give up many material things in life so that my kids can have the best education my family possibly can provide them. (My father did the same for 8 kids, all while driving around in a Rambler and wearing the same 3 white shirts.) I don't apologize for highlighting what I find right with my schools and my teachers. >

No one is asking that you apologize for doing what is best for your kids, but is in fact what you think is best, not necessarily what is best for every child. My point was that you have no problem pointing out the problem of a educator without ever walking in their shoes. That's not fair. And just because you pay taxes that pay their salaries doesn't give you the right either. Many parents, I have found, have no problem telling us what the problems are, but very few have logical answers.


<Here was the first breakdown in communication, Mike. If you'll read carefully, you'll see that primarily I ask for results. If a person or a group gets results, then they are rarely hassled. When they don't get results, then the process is called into question - as it should be. >

There was no breakdown in communication. I know what you were saying. What are the results you speak of. Objective answers to objective testing. To me that is not the answer to anything. But you are a researcher and a person who must find the bottom line. Although I respect that, I don't agree with it when it comes to education.



<First... You have repeatedly inferred that I know nothing about teaching. Think carefully, Mike.

1) I've probably taught over 2000 martial arts students in my life - in a University Physical Education program complete with course grades.

2) In-between Bill and his Ph.D. were years of slave labor as a graduate student. And guess what graduate students get to do to earn their keep?

3) I was a faculty member at U.Va. for a number of years after I got my doctorate. I was also a member of various University faculty organizations and clubs. >

Although the resume is certainly respectable Bill, it's not the same thing. Teaching in a public school setting is NOT like teaching karate where kids run to the door and stay active for an hour or so and go home; it's not like teaching college kids who are there on their own free will and excited about getting an education, career, etc. , or that they may have one or two classes that day and go back to the dorm to relax. It's apples and oranges.

<I've had a little bit of experience with teaching, Mike. And yes, I've paid some dues. >

And I've done experiments in labs, but it's not the samething you do. You certainly have experience teaching, but not in the same setting. BIG difference.


<This is a line I enjoy a lot. Remove school teacher and insert physician.>

I'm not even going further with what you wrote because, to be honest, you don't get it. They are kids, plain and simple. They are not a piece of merchandise to be bartered, sold, and profit margins made from. It's not about what kind of spreadsheet you can make with their objective results from testing. They are kids, who, given the right environment, support, and leadership, will grow to become something special. When you start putting numbers around them, it's not what it is all about.

I'm arguing with the analytical mind of a researcher (no offense). There is so much more Bill in a public school setting that people who think as you do will never quite get. And the problem is in my opinion is that we are a statistic-driven society and those numbers go the the public and they then begin to think that way. This then gets thrown to us in the trenches and it's not fair to the kids.


<What's the upside? Good teachers should be paid more. A LOT more. And the bad ones can always find another career. And if the process is right in the teaching, the outcomes should follow. And EVERYONE wins. >

Always agreed with this point! :-)



<If there's something handicapping the U.S. education system, well... What are we waiting for? >

Why do we care so much what the rest of the world is scoring on standardized tests? They have been scoring higher than us for many years and we are still the world's greatest economy, greatest democracy, greatest place to live. If we want to take away our kids entire childhood by keeping them in school longer than I guess that's what we'll do. Once again, these are answers from people who don't have an understanding of children.

<And get used to the measurement, Mike. That's what the rest of the world must put up with. That's what YOU do to YOUR OWN students, Mike. Fair is fair... Why are you different? What is your special exemption? And if you said that in front of your students who must be measured by you on a daily basis, what will they think? >

How can you say that's what I do? You don't know what I do with my students. I don't judge them through the basic rote memorization format that judges how well they can remember useless information. I believe in performance assessment, alternative assessment, self-evaluation, etc.
This is real learning happens.

<Actually I'm talking to two local Universities about teaching courses such as differential equations and statistics. But I've got to work it out with my present employer. >

Try teaching night school and see what you think instead of college. World of difference.


mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
Quote:
Rich,

I know we have had our spats, but I commend you for getting into education at the school that you have chosen. It's a whole different world from what you were accustomed. I too, went from the trades into education and I think that makes a better teacher all around. Your life experiences sometimes means much more than another algebra test.



Heheheheh. I enjoy our spats. When I click onto the forums and see you name listed under a thread I make a B-Line to it. You frequently have intersting things to say, even if I do not agree with you.

There are a few others I look for as well. And some threads I pass by based on who started it. I never pass you by Mike, and any words of wisdom are appreciated.

As we speak I am awaiting a call from the county to set up an interview.

Rich

_________________
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17219
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Let's try this - just for grins.
Mike wrote:

I'm not even going further with what you wrote because, to be honest, you don't get it. They are kids, plain and simple. They are not a piece of merchandise to be bartered, sold, and profit margins made from. It's not about what kind of spreadsheet you can make with their objective results from testing. They are kids, who, given the right environment, support, and leadership, will grow to become something special. When you start putting numbers around them, it's not what it is all about.

I'm arguing with the analytical mind of a researcher (no offense). There is so much more Bill in a public school setting that people who think as you do will never quite get. And the problem is in my opinion is that we are a statistic-driven society and those numbers go the the public and they then begin to think that way. This then gets thrown to us in the trenches and it's not fair to the kids.

Dr. DoGood, circa 1995 wrote:

I'm not even going further with what you wrote because, to be honest, you don't get it. They are patients, plain and simple. They are not a piece of merchandise to be bartered, sold, and profit margins made from. It's not about what kind of spreadsheet you can make with their objective results from testing. They are people, who, given the right treatment, support, and counseling, will heal and return to their productive roles in society. When you start putting numbers around their doctors, when you start getting in the way of the doctor-patient relationship, it's not what it is all about.

I'm arguing with the analytical mind of a researcher (no offense). There is so much more Bill in a doctor's office setting that people who think as you do will never quite get. And the problem is in my opinion is that we are a statistic-driven society and those numbers go the the public and they then begin to think that way. This then gets thrown to us physicians in the trenches and it's not fair to our patients.

Mike wrote:

Teaching in a public school setting is NOT like teaching karate where kids run to the door and stay active for an hour or so and go home; it's not like teaching college kids who are there on their own free will and excited about getting an education, career, etc. , or that they may have one or two classes that day and go back to the dorm to relax. It's apples and oranges.

Dr. DoGood, circa 1995 wrote:

My patients are sicker!

:lol:

It's the same thing, Mike.

Physicans are getting over it. Physicians are no longer telling society that they know better, and we don't know what we're talking about. They now are part of the process of assessment to the degree that evidence-based medical guidelines are making their way into software assessment tools. THEY are starting to get it. They're a competitive lot, and want to do better than their peers - just like in medical school or undergrad. ;)

And it is indeed fair to the patients. Not only that, but the Institute of Medicine is endorsing this kind of activity. And Fortune 500 companies who have to pay for the care for their employees are demanding it.

And soon those same companies will be asking why Johnny Employee doesn't want to move to XYZtown, USA where the public schools aren't up to snuff. Mark my word...

What is there with the teacher-child relationship that doesn't exist with the doctor-patient relationship, Mike? Your argument holds no water with me.

Sleep on this a few years. When you're older and in a position to contribute to the assessment of teachers who you KNOW can't do it as well as you did it, THEN you'll get it. And the process will need your years of experience.
Mike wrote:

What are the results you speak of. Objective answers to objective testing. To me that is not the answer to anything. But you are a researcher and a person who must find the bottom line. Although I respect that, I don't agree with it when it comes to education.

Sleep on it. File that statement away. Read it again in 10 years, and see how you feel about what you just said.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
Quote:
What is there with the teacher-child relationship that doesn't exist with the doctor-patient relationship, Mike?


Personally, I treat the doctor-patient relationship with some skepticism. We really like our family physicians, and pay a premium to utilize them, but must always question their motives. Remember the defensive medicine discussions? I generally trust them but have learned to ask why whenever they recommend something. I do not demand peer to peer but I do not believe they are to be on a pedestal.

This teacher-child relationship thing is a bit scary but for different reasons. I have been warned to be very careful what I say to the kids in MCJROTC... they think I am God (quote)! Any off hand comment or joke is taken very seriously by the kids... Especially the ones looking for the father figure.

Also there is the dynamic with the young ladies. Some of them get way too friendly. And it is likely innocent. But...

I have been warned to never be alone with a female student. Period!

What about that Mike?

Rich

_________________
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Bill,

I know what you are saying and I don't need another 10 - 15 years to figure it out. What I'm saying is that it's something you have to experience and until your in that classroom day after day, you'll never get it. It's really that simple. It's one of those professions that you can't comment from the sidelines in my opinion.

Rich,

I agree, with all the accusations that fly around and state and local restrictions/stature, you have to be very careful, but that doesn't mean you can't have a great relationship with them, you just have to be careful. BTW, I would never be alone in a room with a female student these days, especially with the door closed for whatever reason. If they stay for make up work or anything else, we take it to the library or some other more visable spot. I've got a family to take care of and I'm never taking that chance!

mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:50 am
Posts: 23
Location: Boston area
mikemurphy wrote:
Eastcoast (Do you have a name?)

Your statistics may be correct about Militon's demographics, although I never mentioned anything about poverty; however, have you been in their high school or school system? They must be on the Metco program or something similar as those stats do not compare to the makeup I had there for classes.

As for those kids, they should have been locked up for a good long time. Give me a break. The girl comes from a dysfunctional family and it's ok for 5 boys to use and abuse her? Their behavior should be the one in question. Did she tie them up and force them on her? I don't think so. She may be no saint, but her own personal problems do not make what they did right.

mike


Mike: My name is Rich. Mike think about what your saying. You have 5 young boys, whose hormones are raging. These boys were but teenagers , What teenage boy is going to act rational in a situation where a girl is offering them oral sex? Does the girl have and culpability in this incident or is her being a girl , somehow more vulnerable to the boys? I thought our liberal society has moved beyond that. So your suggestion is to institutionalize these young boys in a prison system that will victimize them and leave them hardened against the world. Mike lets be honest, if you were 17 , you might have been in that lockeroom also :cry:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 05, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 989
Location: Randolph, MA USA 781-963-8891
Rich,

<Mike: My name is Rich. Mike think about what your saying. You have 5 young boys, whose hormones are raging. These boys were but teenagers , What teenage boy is going to act rational in a situation where a girl is offering them oral sex? Does the girl have and culpability in this incident or is her being a girl , somehow more vulnerable to the boys? I thought our liberal society has moved beyond that. So your suggestion is to institutionalize these young boys in a prison system that will victimize them and leave them hardened against the world. Mike lets be honest, if you were 17 , you might have been in that lockeroom also >

Stupidity in never a good excuse, no matter what socio-economic background you come from. These boys were smart enough to know better. There are numerous boys out there with the same raging hormones that weren't there, or wouldn't have been involved in such a thing. These boys aren't victims, they are users of the worst kind. As for the girl, she'll pay for this I'm sure one way or another, and that's sad.

mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17219
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Wow! 8O Sound a bit like a controversy we were having on another thread.

If you are interested, see Georgia Christian School expells girl. Warning -- It's a long one, and brought up a lot of interesting issues. Beware the Gordian knot.

I don't know all the details in this incident, Mike and Rich, but you might find thoughts expressed on that other thread germaine to the discussion. In many ways...

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 2714
A difficult subject....

What is most difficult about moving to an assessment based approach to education is that it probably isn't going to be done the right way the first time. This is what today's educators are trying to cope with. A not-so-well though out and heavy handed approach that got dumped on them at a time when there's less money, a whole bunch of senior teachers that have retired and/or been asked to retire who have walked away with tons of experience that they won't be able to share by being mentors, and when many of the new teachers coming into education aren't paid much, and are given kids who have less social support than at any time in history.

Another factor is that it seems like we think we're spending enough on education and don't want to pay any more for it (education isn't free in most other countries.) So wanting a mercedes but only wanting to pay for a yugo isn't going to lead to a very good outcome...and - there is a role for quantitative measures in education.

There's a place up in Palatine, Il that has moved to a data-driven model and seen results. I just did a show on the district for ASCD http://www.ascd.org and it should be released in next couple of months. It is called "A Visit To A Data-Driven School District." The video is kind of an overview of their process. They have about 1/3 low-income students, almost 40% minority, lots of ELL.

They applied for and received the Baldridge award.
http://www.ccsd15.net/Baldrige/Index.html

They not only measure student's fluency rates and test scores from kindergarden on up - they also measure affective things like "do you like math?", "do you like reading", "do you like coming to school?". They noticed that if student enthusiam scores for reading dropped - so did their test scores. Not a big surprise but it is a way for them to keep track of problems before they show up in learning outcomes. Interestingly enough, they started off by asking their constituency (including business owners and parents, and nonparents, politicians, etc.) what they wanted out of the school system. Things like:
•challenges the district faces,
• important skills students need
• financial priorities for the district.
•what type of evidence—for example, test scores, information, reports, or exhibits—would provide assurance that District 15 provides the highest quality education for the resources expended.
•“What would District 15 have to do in order to delight you?”

They used that to develop their strategic vision and went on from there.
This is their current strategic vision through 2010
http://www.ccsd15.net/AboutDistrict15/S ... on2010.pdf

The former super of CCSD 15 wrote a book about the process and his goal of measuable continuous improvement in education.
http://qualitypress.asq.org/perl/catalog.cgi?item=H1200

And it should be noted that this process took them almost 10 years before they started to see the measureable improvement they were looking for. And recent budget cuts to education have slowed down their gains...

I think there needs to be some introduction of quantitative measures in education - but how it is being done through NCLB hasn't been a great start.

I think, with evaluation of both cognitive and affective areas we'll find that we can do a better job with the academics - but that we actually need to be spending more money on programs that support the affective needs of students. This includes paying teachers more for all the time they spend after-hours and developing better and more focused after-school programs.

I hope the stuff in Palatine is stuff that other districts can adopt - it has really helped their peformance...sadly that district is only up through 8th grade - so many of those kids get lost is the mayhem of large conslidated high schools...but that is another topic.

_________________
Did you show compassion today?


Last edited by Dana Sheets on Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17219
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Dana

This was a very thoughtful post. And for what it's worth, all the caveats you mentioned absolutely happened - and are happening - in the health care world. ALL of them - right down to things starting off less-than-perfect to institutionalizing myriad and numerous patient-reported measures in the assessment process.

Many people who haven't been there don't understand how complex this can be, and how good it can get when you do it right. To a lay person, scientists and researchers are geeks in the lab who can't possibly understand their world and what they deal with. But that's precisely the point! Until you have evidence-based methods... Until you listen to "the voice of the customer" (external AND internal), until you ask, until you get everyone on board communicating what is right and what isn't right about a process, things will stay broken. Nature is not kind to processes allowed to evolve in a random manner. It's hardly the path to optimal behavior.

Measures can be "hard" and they can be "soft." They can be highly objective, and they can be perception-based. (Perception after all IS reality to people in the trenches)

If this stuff wasn't important, then I wouldn't be working for a multi billion dollar company which specializes in information related to the health care industry.

A good place to start to understand this is by catching up on six sigma. This is a process that many Fotune 500 companies use to put themselves ahead of the competition in the marketplace. And if you want to know if the process works, ask yourself how much faith you have in that GE jet engine outside your plane window when you're tens of thousands of feet in the air. 8O It's pretty amazing when you think of how good things can get.

A great book for the lay person to read is the following.

The Power of Six Sigma

It's sort of a "Six Sigma for Dummies" book that explains the concepts in a narrative fashion. The book is a fictional conversation at a coffee shop between two fast food industry workers. It's very easy to get through.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 5:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
Quote:
if the process works, ask yourself how much faith you have in that GE jet engine outside your plane window when you're tens of thousands of feet in the air. It's pretty amazing when you think of how good things can get.


Years ago I actually was involved the the manufacturing process at the Evendale plant. Scary huh?

The GE engines are so good the two engine planes equipped with them where the very first certified by the FAA to fly over the ocean. Before that, you needed at least three.

The engines are closer to 9 Sigma. Six Sigma is for lamps and dish washers and the like.
:lol:

Rich

_________________
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:50 am
Posts: 23
Location: Boston area
mikemurphy wrote:
Rich,

<Mike: My name is Rich. Mike think about what your saying. You have 5 young boys, whose hormones are raging. These boys were but teenagers , What teenage boy is going to act rational in a situation where a girl is offering them oral sex? Does the girl have and culpability in this incident or is her being a girl , somehow more vulnerable to the boys? I thought our liberal society has moved beyond that. So your suggestion is to institutionalize these young boys in a prison system that will victimize them and leave them hardened against the world. Mike lets be honest, if you were 17 , you might have been in that lockeroom also >

Stupidity in never a good excuse, no matter what socio-economic background you come from. These boys were smart enough to know better. There are numerous boys out there with the same raging hormones that weren't there, or wouldn't have been involved in such a thing. These boys aren't victims, they are users of the worst kind. As for the girl, she'll pay for this I'm sure one way or another, and that's sad.

mike



Mike: I did not say the boys are victims, neither is the girl a victim. There was no force involved. In this age of equality, don't you think it is time that boys and girls stop being held to different standards of behaviour? You did not answer my question. How many years in prison, do you think these boys should do, for engaging in sex with a willing participant? Fortunatlythe prosecutors and courts decided that the number was none. If there was any violence or forced involved, I would have agered that the key should be thrown away, but that was not the case. From most of the accounts that i have read, it is her parents that should be held accountable. The parents seem to have embraced a very liberal discipline structure on the young lady. One story had the girl at a hotel in Boston, partying with her friends, there was drinking and girls topless at the party. The twist to the story is, that the parents were in a room next door, as chaperones. This story was printed in the Boston Globe. So maybe the parents should be held accountable.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group