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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:17 pm 
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An unlikely union and unlikely set of protesters. The stereotypical Christian conservative is happy about our presense on Iraq and the stereotypical hard-core biker is anything but law-abiding and respectful. Did I miss something or is this "upside-down day"?


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/02/21/funera ... index.html


Bravo to the bikers. I hope some of the Christian Extremists decide to get physical :twisted: .


chewy


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:15 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Moral of the story?

1) It doesn't make sense to stereotype any group

2) Idiocy does not discriminate on the basis of race, gender, religion, ethnicity, geographic origin, or sexual orientation.

- Bill


Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:33 pm 
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chewy wrote:
Did I miss something or is this "upside-down day"?

Bravo to the bikers. I hope some of the Christian Extremists decide to get physical :twisted: .


Fred Phelps is simply insane and as far as I'm concerned nothing is terribly surprising when it comes to people not liking what him or what he does.

This court document is long, but pretty interesting if you want to know more.
http://www.killcreek.com/devolution/addicted.html

This site has an ugly color scheme, but the document is broken up into more manageable chunks.
http://blank.org/addict/

The term Christian Extremist hardly even fits him, he's so warped.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:44 pm 
It`s only a matter of time before one of those protesters gets beaten or shot .

as far as I`m concerned the bikers are protecting the peace .


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:03 am 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Bikers vs. Christian Whackos
From another forums:






Bikers vs. Christian Whackos

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I tend to like bikers although I seldom agree with their politics.

Fundimentalist Christians(and muslims) tend to wierd me out and I seldom agree with their politics.

I never supported the war, and I still don't. I have been to countless protests, but would never even consider heckling a funeral

I don't really know what "supporting the troops" means if one doesn't support the war.

This story is just bizarre. Two factions of America's right wing biting each other in the ass.




bikers vs. Bible thumpers


FORT CAMPBELL, Kentucky (AP) -- Wearing vests covered in military patches, a band of motorcyclists rolls around the country from one soldier's funeral to another, cheering respectfully to overshadow jeers from church protesters.

They call themselves the Patriot Guard Riders, and they are more than 5,000 strong, forming to counter anti-gay protests held by the Rev. Fred Phelps at military funerals.

Phelps believes American deaths in Iraq are divine punishment for a country that he says harbors homosexuals. His protesters carry signs thanking God for so-called IEDs -- explosives that are a major killer of soldiers in Iraq.

The bikers shield the families of dead soldiers from the protesters, and overshadow the jeers with patriotic chants and a sea of red, white and blue flags.

"The most important thing we can do is let families know that the nation cares," said Don Woodrick, the group's Kentucky captain. "When a total stranger gets on a motorcycle in the middle of winter and drives 300 miles to hold a flag, that makes a powerful statement."

At least 14 states are considering laws aimed at the funeral protesters, who at a recent memorial service at Fort Campbell wrapped themselves in upside-down American flags. They danced and sang impromptu songs peppered with vulgarities that condemned homosexuals and soldiers.

The Patriot Guard was also there, waving up a ruckus of support for the families across the street. Community members came in the freezing rain to chant "U-S-A, U-S-A" alongside them.

"This is just the right thing to do. This is something America didn't do in the '70s," said Kurt Mayer, the group's national spokesman. "Whether we agree with why we're over there, these soldiers are dying to protect our freedoms."

Shirley Phelps-Roper, a daughter of Fred Phelps and an attorney for the Topeka, Kansas-based church, said neither state laws nor the Patriot Guard can silence their message that God killed the soldiers because they fought for a country that embraces homosexuals.

"The scriptures are crystal clear that when God sets out to punish a nation, it is with the sword. An IED is just a broken-up sword," Phelps-Roper said. "Since that is his weapon of choice, our forum of choice has got to be a dead soldier's funeral."

The church, Westboro Baptist Church, is not affiliated with a larger denomination and is made up mostly of Fred Phelps' extended family members.

During the 1990s, church members were known mostly for picketing the funerals of AIDS victims, and they have long been tracked as a hate group by the Montgomery, Alabama-based Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project.

The project's deputy director, Heidi Beirich, said other groups have tried to counter Phelps' message, but none has been as organized as the Patriot Guard.

"I'm not sure anybody has gone to this length to stand in solidarity," she said. "It's nice that these veterans and their supporters are trying to do something. I can't imagine anything worse, your loved one is killed in Iraq and you've got to deal with Fred Phelps."

Kentucky, home to sprawling Fort Campbell along the Tennessee line, was among the first states to attempt to deal with Phelps legislatively. Its House and Senate have each passed bills that would limit people from protesting within 300 feet of a funeral or memorial service. The Senate version would also keep protesters from being within earshot of grieving friends and family members.

Richard Wilbur, a retired police detective, said his Indiana Patriot Guard group only comes to funerals if invited by family. He said he has no problem with protests against the war but sees no place for objectors at a family's final goodbye to a soldier.

"No one deserves this," he said.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 4:13 am 
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I don't really know what "supporting the troops" means if one doesn't support the war.


thats the saddest thing ....

I mean supporting fellow Humans , that have made a huge commitment , sacrafice , and possibly/probably experienced horrific things to protect and serve .

Even if you think theyre insane , you should have no trouble supporting them when they need it .

Bash the machine and the politics and the military , dont dehumanise the individual .

these treehuggers are supposed to be about those fluffy bunny slipper emotions , and then you read quotes like this ....

Man your Christians forgive for crying out loud .

Even if you hate the sin , love the sinner ?

Let those without sin cast the first stone ?

wheres the christian doctrine in this ?

a Christian hate group , what a concept ....... 8O :roll:

everyone who blamed Islam take note ... even in america .....


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:23 am 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Hey i didnt write that. I just posted it.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:53 am 
I know Adam , just venting at the no shades of grey lotus out there .

were for peace and love and the enviroment etc etc , but we cant bend around our agenda to show some compassion for our fellow man .


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 10:48 am 
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Quote:
It`s only a matter of time before one of those protesters gets beaten or shot .-Strike


Amen.

Couple the greif of losing your child, brother, or dearest friend, with some group of A-holes saying they deserved to die.

Going off the deep end on one of them would probably be worth the assault charges they would charge you with.

I wonder what jury would find you guilty if you did assault them?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:26 pm 
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Location: Fairfax, VA, USA
AAAhmed46 wrote:
Bikers vs. Christian Whackos
From another forums:

I tend to like bikers although I seldom agree with their politics.



Just a thought. Most "bikers" are not the lawless rebel types we normally think of. And most folks riding Harley's are the opposite, usually well educated, well off RUBs (Rich Urban Bikers) who play dress up on the weekends. The hard core biker gang type (the 1%er) is actually a very small part of the motorcycling community. It's estimated they're less than 1% of the population hence the term.

Chances are that on the weekend if you see a group of folks on Harley's its a HOG (Harley Owners Group) chapter and a charity ride for a good cause. Most chapters do things just about every weekend and the money from these events usually goes back into the community for groups like Kids with Cancer, The Salvation Army toy drives, etc, etc, etc.

Personally, I ride with anyone (as long as they're safe). I ride all the time, and a lot more than the average of 3000 miles a year. I've met all sorts of folks. And just like society at large, there are all sorts of folks, jerks, cool folks, and lots of folks in the middle. What I've learned though is that bikers (of all types) in general seem to be much more mellow and unless you cause trouble they pretty much don't bother you.

As for biker causes, the only universal biker causes are issues relating to motorcycling. In my case, I disagree with some of the views on helmet laws (I personally use them and think they're a good idea), and think the lobbying could be more useful for other motorcycle related issues (but that's another long issue).

Finally, one final thought. Most of the folks who play dress up want to be "rebels". They dress in their jeans, black t-shirts and leathers. All to be different. I've been ribbed because I don't always dress that way, and usually wear polo style shirts instead of tee shirts. The funny thing is that I'm more of a rebel with that because I'm not dressed like everyone else. But I also ride a lot more than most, and have a bit more attitude (I just don't care and am not trying to "fit in"). And when I wear leather it's for protection and functional. In other words if it's cold I wear either my electric gear (HD orange and black balastics) or leathers. When it's hot, I dress for a compromise of comfort and protection.

Anyway, the point is that as a "biker" I think it's important that people realize that we're real people. And that there's a good chance that your doctor and/or lawyer are "bikers".


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:41 pm 
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And they hang at Tim Hortens (coffee shop) in Canada

Always put thier empty containers in garbage (is it because they enjoy riding IN the scenery instead of in a container called a car :lol: )
Some of the few I`ve seen that will hold the door when you have a tray full

Simply they are enjoying the comradry with a love of something common

The ones with suit and ties...their most often the ones that will scr#@ you over good :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:37 pm 
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Tom wrote:

Most "bikers" are not the lawless rebel types we normally think of. And most folks riding Harley's are the opposite, usually well educated, well off RUBs (Rich Urban Bikers) who play dress up on the weekends.

That's actually been somewhat of an evolutionary process.

In the sixties and seventies, gangs of Hell's Angels riders were peddling methamphetamine. And with the use of crystal meth comes a complete loss of certain aspects of brain function - particularly empathy.

The Japanese meanwhile started making inexpensive, fast, dependable machines that kicked ass. That's around the time that I bought my brand new Suzuki GS750 (1977) which for a month anyway was the fastest production quarter miler sold at any price. AMF bought an ailing Harley Davidson - the bike most associated with the biker gangs - and put nothing into it. They nearly killed the great American motorcycle.

The British bike industry pretty much bit the dust. Bye bye BSA, Triumph, and Norton.

Then a group of concerned employees bought the company out. They went public on Wall Street with it, and found their niche. Basically they understood a passion niche that the Japanese did not get (and in my mind will never get) and built for it. They decreased production, and improved the quality. That drove the price of a Sportster or Hog up, but what was built was worth having at the higher price. It wasn't designed to compete with the high production Japanese scream machines. It was a quality specialty item with "gotta have" appeal.

No more of this...
Quote:
Harley Davidson
Made of Tin
Ride 'em out and
Roll 'em in

No more "wet spot" on the garage floor.

No more "the usual" hard starting stuff, broken chains, etc., etc.

Now we have "overengineered" specialty machines with belt drives and electric starters. But they still have the V-Twin engine. And most importantly of all, they still look and sound like a Harley.

The Japanese even tried to copy them, but they couldn't. That's like trying to copy the way someone else plays a jazz piece. They just don't get it, which is fine by us. 8)

So now... Who do you think is going to buy these machines now that they have way more than doubled in price and you have to wait to get one - at list price? Is it going to be the loser teenager without a job? Is it going to be the dope-peddling drug addict?

I don't think so.

Not only did Harley Davidson improve the machine, they improved the quality of the clientelle seeking them.

It's a great Small American Business success story.
CANDANeh wrote:

The ones with suit and ties...their most often the ones that will scr#@ you over good

Amen to that. Those are the "brilliant" Vice Presidents with MBAs from "the right schools" who make decisions they don't have to live with because they move on to some place else before the consequences of their actions (on the business or humanity) can be accounted for.

I have little use for people who don't do "real work", don't have faith in real people, and don't have passion for the products and services they offer.

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:57 pm 
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The Antithesis of the 70's American biker.


Image :twisted:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:03 pm 
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The PGR (Patriot Guard Riders) are in every State. They only go to funerals where they are invited. They go to funerals to honor those who've given the ultimate sacrifice for this country (as long as the family says it's OK and the family/next-of-kin is always called first to ask).

The PGR doesn't care what you ride, what your politics are, whether you agree or disagree with the war or the administration, only that you are willing to peacefully honor and respect the brave men and women who have served and sacrificed for this country. In fact, that is their first point on their mission statement. The second point is to counter any disrespectful protests. Not that they don't believe in people's freedom to protest, just that they believe that it is disrespectful to do so at someone's funeral who died (at least in part) for the right to protest.

There is a procedure in place that occurs when the PGR learns of the death of a soldier. First, the info is put on a "watch list", then the SC (State Coordinator for the state where the soldier is from or is going to be buried) respectfully contacts the family and asks if they want the PGR to attend, then after the family gives permission, the info is put on a "mission" list and is sent out to PGR members in the area. The numbers that go to the funerals vary and PGR members are encouraged to discuss attendance with their other riding friends who are also invited (but have to follow the rules).

The "counter-protests" are peaceful and mainly consist of singing patriotic songs for the fallen hero to drown out any protesters that have shown up. That only occurs if a counter-protest is needed, otherwise attendance is simply a show of support and respect for the sacrifice of the one who served and their family.

More info:

http://www.patriotguard.org/


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:25 pm 
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Bill Glasheen wrote:
So now... Who do you think is going to buy these machines now that they have way more than doubled in price and you have to wait to get one - at list price? Is it going to be the loser teenager without a job? Is it going to be the dope-peddling drug addict?

I don't think so.

Not only did Harley Davidson improve the machine, they improved the quality of the clientelle seeking them.

It's a great Small American Business success story.


In the "biker" circles that I travel the phrase that is commonly used is (now don't be offended Bill...)

"Doctors, Lawyers, and Indian Chiefs"

meaning those are the only folks that make enough money to afford a new Harley (without financing)! And for anyone that doesn't get the "Indian Chiefs" part, that's a reference to all of the "Native American" Casinos that have popped up over the years giving those groups quite the source of income.

Naturally, the truth is that the true 1%ers, the outlaw biker gangs, can also afford new Harleys based on the income from illegal activities.

I'm like Tom in the fact that I don't wear T-shirts and vary my riding apparel in a similar manner as he does. I was called a "conformist" once by a "weekend outlaw biker wannabe" for wearing a sport shirt instead of a T-shirt and for not drinking beer but having water instead. I looked around the group of nearly two dozen (riders and passengers) and pointed out that me and my lady were the only ones not wearing black T-shirts with something printed on it and the only ones not holding a beer (I even pointed out that most of them were drinking the same brand ;) )... I asked who he thought was the real "conformist", me or him? After everyone got through with a good laugh, we all finished the drink break, got back in the saddle and started out for another couple of hundred miles on the road. It's never been brought up again.
:mrgreen:


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