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 Post subject: Surveillance is Tyranny
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 6:01 pm 
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The Eternal Value of Privacy: Too many wrongly characterize the debate as "security versus privacy." The real choice is liberty versus control. Tyranny, whether it arises under threat of foreign physical attack or under constant domestic authoritative scrutiny, is still tyranny.


http://www.wired.com/news/columns/1,70886-0.html

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:42 pm 
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Meta

I have to disagree.

Life is needed to have either Liberty or Happiness--thats why the Framers put it first.

Some--SOME, restrictions on ones personal privacy is often needed.
As it was during WW2.

More importantly, unless and until I have some major protections from other private citizens that daily invade my personal privacy/have the capacity to do so etc. I would rather trust the government.

There are more laws protecting me from THEM than a fellow citizen.

I used to date a reporter and some the things she would do, some of the things that she had easy access to would have gotten a government worker fired and jailed as a matter or course.
She could and did invade peoples privacy on the most flimsy of reasons--all LEGALLY mind you, in the name of a "free press."

Some intern at the local paper can turn my life upside down and inside out on nothing more than 'hunch" and I have NO LEGAL RECOURSE OR PROTECTION FROM THEM.
And you/the author wants me to be afraid of the governement?

Identify theft is growing like a weed main-lineing Thompsons Miracle Grow--and you want me to be worried about the government?

Heck lets pass some laws with TEETH to keep the kid next door from phishing my personal info and going thu my trash--THEN talk to me about the governement.

And with all respect to the author of the article.

He is being hysterical.

Slippery slope arguements are seldom all that solid.

Esp because they work BOTH ways.


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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 3:23 am 
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cxt wrote:
Meta

I have to disagree.

Life is needed to have either Liberty or Happiness--thats why the Framers put it first.


Meta: As the article pointed out, the founding fathers took privacy for granted as part of basic human freedoms, and could never have known it was to be abused as it has.

cxt wrote:
Some--SOME, restrictions on ones personal privacy is often needed.
As it was during WW2.

Meta: Yeah....We see how the Government "protects" us during times of war...Internment camps anyone? Those darn sneaky Japs..You'd think we'd have learned our lesson.
*cough* Guantanamo! *cough*


cxt wrote:
More importantly, unless and until I have some major protections from other private citizens that daily invade my personal privacy/have the capacity to do so etc. I would rather trust the government.


Meta: And who watches the watchers?

cxt wrote:
There are more laws protecting me from THEM than a fellow citizen.


Meta: From whom? The Government? Seems like they can do more and more as they please these days..Try checking out certain books at the library..

cxt wrote:
I used to date a reporter and some the things she would do, some of the things that she had easy access to would have gotten a government worker fired and jailed as a matter or course.


Meta: Reporters keep dirt, and the Government keeps dirt on them. It's a game. Besides, piss off the wrong people, and you wind up taking a dirt nap.

cxt wrote:
She could and did invade peoples privacy on the most flimsy of reasons--all LEGALLY mind you, in the name of a "free press."


Meta: Another reason to dislike reporters. Opportunistic vultures, most of them.

cxt wrote:
Some intern at the local paper can turn my life upside down and inside out on nothing more than 'hunch" and I have NO LEGAL RECOURSE OR PROTECTION FROM THEM.
And you/the author wants me to be afraid of the government?


cxt wrote:
Identify theft is growing like a weed main-lining Thompsons Miracle Grow--and you want me to be worried about the government?


Meta: In this area, especially. The amount of data that exists on you and where would shock you to your core.
Individual data protection is up to you, we need to be proactive in this area these days. We cannot afford to rely on the honestly of institutions or Government regulation to safeguard your info. As an IT professional, trust me on this. If you are really interested, I can post data on how to remove yourself mostly from the grid as they say..At least you can reduce the junk mail.


cxt wrote:
Heck lets pass some laws with TEETH to keep the kid next door from phishing my personal info and going thu my trash--THEN talk to me about the government.


Meta: Again, let me defer you personal responsibility in this area. Example: I have a wireless data center in my home.
Yes, I'm an uber nerd. But moreover, my neighbors have wireless routers. Guess what? They have neglected to enable encryption on the router, and not only can I attach to their network and steal bandwidth if I wish, but I can also employ a port sniffer and other packet filter tools and I can capture data from his network, see what he surfs, steal credit card info, and anything else on his computer.
Likewise, people are for the most part unknowing participants in the distribution and dissemination of their private data.
Let the buyer beware.

cxt wrote:
And with all respect to the author of the article.
He is being hysterical.


Meta: I wish that were true, but in fact, there should be more outrage. Why isn't there?
Because average people cannot see the impact and control this sort of information can have over us.
It's the times we live in.

cxt wrote:
Slippery slope arguments are seldom all that solid.


Meta: It's a slippery slope alright, and we are falling into it as a society, and very quietly I might add.

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Last edited by -Metablade- on Sat May 20, 2006 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 3:57 am 
they should just microchip and track everyone .

I mean if your not doing anything wrong whats the problem .... :twisted: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 1:58 pm 
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Meta

Its hard having any kind of converstaion when you conflate issues.

Japanese internment when we were at war with Japan has little to do with the topic at hand--which is privacy.
We also cracked down really hard on the Germans and Italins.
In any case, internment when we were at war with the Germans, Japanese, Italians etc has nothing to do with privacy.

I also have no problems with Gitmo---heck more people have died in Sen. Ted Kenndeys CAR, than have died at Gitmo.

I have no problem with non-state actors being locked up.
The Geneva Coventions specifcally allows such folks to be treated as they are.
Quite specifically.

Besides like I already said--LIFE comes BEFORE liberty and pursuit of happiness because you have to be ALIVE to enjoy either.

Its not "tyranny" its simple taking a few more precautions.

"Who watcher the watchers"

Ok, lets play, if someone needs to "watch the watchers" then WHOM "WATCHS" THEM?--and whom "watchs" them? and so and so on and so on...................

At some point you have to trust somebody.

But the problem is you/the author are ticked because the government is supposedly invading your privacy.
I'M ticked because private citzens have more abilty to do so, less laws preventing them, and I have fewer legal recorses if they do.
From where I sit the goevernment is by far the lesser possible threat.

Your OWN arguements suggest that I am correct.

Look how much stuff you personally do to protect yourself from guys just like me.

The "outrage" is that you and I are not better protected from our fellow citizens.

I have to confess that I, just like the governement, have been keeping data on the phone numbers and address of other private citizens.
I tabulate that data and keep it updated each year.

I call it a "phone book." ;)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 7:09 pm 
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No point in discussing unless we can be specific. Cameras all over the place where there is a reasonable expectation of privacy: Bad! Cameras in areas where crime is likely or where safety needs to be safeguarded and criminals may be deterred or captured, such as ATMs: Good! Government recording my purchases and reading habits and following me around without cause: Bad! Supermarket tracking my purchases so they can offer me a 50 cent coupon on green peppers: totally fine, since I gave them the right by adopting their savings card. Government catching that pedophile who raped 30 kids by sitting in on minor's chat rooms: good! Government reading my comments here and blowing up my house in response: Bad!

So what is the specific problem?

Meanwhile, what the heck does this mean:

"We lose our individuality, because everything we do is observable and recordable."

As data is becoming more and more available, and random people can become public figures in the blogosphere, and (perhaps unwelcome) commercial entreaties are tailored to specifics rather than mass mailed--it's the opposite. UNLESS threats of repercussions homogenize us--and that is some else. Nevermind that "everything we do" is something of a reach.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 9:37 pm 
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IJ wrote:
Supermarket tracking my purchases so they can offer me a 50 cent coupon on green peppers: totally fine, since I gave them the right by adopting their savings card.


You mean you actually gave them real information when you filled out the form for those savings cards?!?!?! I have about 7-9 of them for various supermarkets, pharmacy, and such stores... not a single one of them has any of my information on it! :wink:

Quote:
Government reading my comments here and blowing up my house in response: Bad!


But that's already happened a few different times in this country. From Idaho to Texas and "sea to shining sea"... It is not and never has been the purpose of government to insure your individual safety, only your rights (which it has failed to do for well over a century). Your individual safety is your responsibility, not the government's. There is a tremendous appeal from the standpoint of most Americans acting as consumers of the government created and delivered product called safety. Today, in the U.S. and other western nations, the people generally feel that it is beyond their ability to confront murderers in the act of murder... that it is someone else's responsibility and they should and can only call 911, fall in abject terror, wait and cower, as passive recipients of a service (the government product safety) they hope and pray will be delivered in a timely fashion. The Founders didn't expect us to be "safety consumers"; they expected us to be directly involved in the ongoing defense of ourselves, our families, our communities, our country, and our way of life. The Founders were adamantly opposed to a large standing army, especially one that was better armed than the populace at large. There is no room for discussions about the PATRIOT Act and other legislation being a "slippery slope". The "slippery slope" was started over a century ago and arguably close to two centuries ago. The major push causing the sled of our inalienable Rights to fall off the precipice came in the early 20th century with the acceleration continuing unabated to the present. The Founders, and indeed, most of the people living two centuries ago, would be appalled at the thought of government doing to our freedoms, liberties, and rights what our government has done in the past 20 years, as well as the past 100 years. Remember, this country was founded because of the egregious violations by a government of the freedoms, liberties, and rights of it's people. Reading the Declaration of Independence with an eye towards where "We, the People" currently stand under the control of our own government, one can only realize why Jefferson stated so emphatically that the tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of tyrants and patriots. In fact, Jefferson felt that... oh, about every 20 years or so, there should be another revolution! As Ben Franklin stated so eloquently, "Those who would give up a Liberty for more Security deserve neither!" This isn't about privacy, it's about Control. Someone who knows everything about you can control everything about you.

Quote:
So what is the specific problem?


If you understand the sentiments of the Founders, you don't need to ask that question... if you don't, then it simply can't be answered in a single post or single thread.


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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 11:18 pm 
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Panther, you have to raise a specific issue to have any meaningful discussion. I'm not saying privacy and control aren't important, but we have to narrow the field down a bit.

Meanwhile: things are different. Not JUST worse, tho in a way they are, but different. We wax poetic about the great days of the founders and all the freedom "we the people" had, but bet your butt there were real problems, such as some of the people being subject to slavery--forced labor, no choice, deliberate limits on education, beatings, rapes, and general atrocity. Despite all the freedom and equality flowing around, life was a real P.I.T.A. for many, say, HALF--namely women, who couldn't vote and generally couldn't pursue lives of their own like men. And so on. We've lost and we've gained.

Meanwhile, self reliance is swell, although i'm not sure where the privacy comes in to that. And I was referring to priceclub cards in the hypothetical sort of way :)

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 2:56 am 
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You will get no argument from me that some things have changed for the better... (the end of slavery, freedom to vote, freedom to learn, etc.) Unfortunately, the beatings, rapes and general atrocities have gotten worse, not better with certain governmental restrictions.

I have been accused, for years here, as being pro-Republicrat and anti-Demopublican. I made and make no excuses for my loathing of the previous administration. However, many don't seem to realize that I have the same distrust of the current crop of despots. They can claim any excuse they wish, but there is absolutely no reason for them to look at everyone's phone records and ISP records! I spit on anyone who says, "If you don't have anything to hide..." That is such a crock of Bull$h!t and I am so tired of hearing those comments that I am thoroughly disgusted with those who parrot that response. Fine, if you (meaning the "collective" you, not you "IJ" in particular) don't have anything to hide, how about posting some intimate pictures of your family for all to see... it's the same principle. The Founders believed that we ALL have legitimate expectations of privacy and most folks still hold those beliefs. If you don't, well fine, you just tell everyone your business all you want, but leave me the he!! alone! Our government of both political parties has sold us out. A country that can not or does not control it's borders is not a country for long. This country could completely shut down our borders, yet this administration, as the last and the one before that and the one before that and ... have failed to do so at the peril of the nation. Despicable. Illegals march openly in our cities without fear of reprisal or being rounded up and deported. They are openly interviewed on the major networks without fear of being targeted for deportation. Yet honest, hard working citizens and legal immigrants are targeted all the time by the system for actions by the IRS, DEA, FBI, CIA, NSA, and on and on and on and ... A government should fear it's citizens, not the other way around.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2006 3:00 am 
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y dad would kill me for saying this, but lets face it: Monitering people of an...eastern origin is rather smart and good for national security.


What im scared of is percieving things that are not a threat as a threat.

For instance, if some guy just happens to have said hello to a terror suspect without knowing him at some point in time, he may end up in gauntanamo bay, or if someone gets sentimental online and says something dumb could go into gauntanamo bay, despite not being a threat.


But if monitering is done with CONTEXT and reasoning, probably not a bad thing.


Though full scale monitering of the populace is bad.



P.S. the show called "The Unit'' is freaking awsome.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:39 pm 
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More fun stuff.
Better not check out anything that might be "of interest" to the Feds:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/31/nyreg ... 0&emc=eta1

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:09 pm 
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in Detroit


http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060612/POLITICS/606120362


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