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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:51 pm 
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Congratulations to our esteemed moderator on his new position......Hope all goes well.......will do my best to stay within the boundaries of good taste and decorum that these fora are known for.......


Now, back to the chase......

I saw this article recently and it might interest some of you (while the rest of us urge us to ignore it as quickly as possible)......

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,141525,00.html

Quote:
Last week, Viola Trevino carried her 5-year-old "daughter" into an Albuquerque court to satisfy a judge’s demand to produce the child.

One: Trevino had kidnapped the child moments before to pass off as her daughter. Two: the "real" daughter never existed. Three: the "father" and ex-husband Steve Barreras had paid $20,000 in child support. Four: the system finally noticed Trevino was lying.

The system is broken. In recent years, heartbreaking stories from every state have flooded the media. Often they focus on the plight of children who are abused or neglected by those assigned to protect them. But just as often they highlight the abuse of parents — especially non-custodial fathers — who are processed as paperwork, not people.

His petition for a restraining order was denied. Evidence that his vasectomy, conducted a year prior to the child’s "birth," had left him with a zero sperm count, was ignored. Phoning and writing to New Mexico’s child support agency to have them verify his daughter’s non-existence resulted in a letter. The child enforcement worker stated, "your daughter does exist, as I am sure you already knew."

Reports from an investigative journalist at KOBTV, Albuquerque, finally brought enough pressure to bear that Trevino was ordered to produce the child in court. On the day of her hearing, Trevino went to a mall, where she convinced a grandmother and her 2-year-old granddaughter that they should all go to see Santa Claus. Instead, Trevino took them to the courthouse, snatched the girl, and tried to pass her off as the missing daughter.

A partial explanation is that the child welfare system seems to automatically favor the claims of custodial mothers over non-custodial fathers.

But why did the child support enforcement system not follow up despite complaints? Farr suggests an answer: "[S]ome officials see child support agencies as revenue-generating agencies. States make money off the collection of child support while the taxpayers lose money at the federal level overall. Too often, this money-mindedness does not give incentives for agencies to do the right thing for children and families."


So this guy has to pay child support for years for a child he never had (and he can prove it), but the child welfare system refuses to even listen to him........LOL ..........who cares, he is just another one of those MEN........we can blame gravity on men and we can blame anythign and evrything on men, even and especially when it is the men themselves who are getting hurt......MEN are always to blame, even when they are the victims (which they never are and even if men were victims from time to time, it aint that bad, so we can go back to ignoring the plight of men, thanks).......

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:35 pm 
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ATH. Relax. You have issues.

Briefly, you employ a variety of annoying arguments. First, you flood the board. You give us a thousand links, making it impossible to evaluate or discuss anything in detail. Second, you employ the use of anecdotes very heavily, often gleaned from sketchy, agenda driven male victimization websites--and you won't even acknowledge when your absurd anecdotes are shown to be falsified by the manvictim industry you are so enamored with. Third, you attribute a bunch of ideas to people, such as myself, when we don't have them, for example, saying that I discount female on female violence, or female on male violence, when I have repeatedly made it perfectly clear that I denounce violence in relationships and out of them and support efforts to help victims of any kind--I simply view you outlandish efforts to portray males as the most powerless and victimized group in the world as a ridiculous hyperbole (and postulate it is seated in some repressed trauma, unresolved relationship problems, or other disturbance in your psyche).

Basically, you are usually just bleating out your minimally justified position in a way that deliberately irritates people so you can claim more victimhood. It's childish and irritating and it's made you something of a laughingstock on the forums.

Do you care about this online community? Then reform yourself. Otherwise, don't go away mad--just go away.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:19 am 
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Therefore, please play nice and debate/discuss issues not people.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:24 pm 
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Ian,

you are repeating yourself, again (you already told me i have issues)......most folks who tell me i have issues are like you and have no interest in helping to resolve those issues (they just seem to like to say, "get help" and run away like a sissy without the guts to hang out and help-so perhaps you would like to use the door, it wont hit you on the way out).......no one has forced you to respond (although you do get major kudos for doing so, these aren’t easy issues to deal with)......

I have always been a laughingstock in these forums (isnt the plural version of forum, fora? Not sure) so why change now (but thanks for pointing it out).........I was a major laughingstock a few years back when i took a very anti-war stance.......some things never change.......

I would rather people laugh than cry or be angry.......and if what i say makes folks cry or be angry, that is sometimes on me and sometimes on them.........

I believe it is women (for example.....National organization for women) who claim to be the biggest victims......men are never allowed to claim to be victimized (cuz if we dare to claim to have been victimized, we get fools rushing in to tell us how it aint that bad, it didn’t really happen, and you shouldn’t feel bad anyway cuz women - or some other worthy victimized group - are the biggest victims, they have it worse).......I never said i was the biggest victim, but when i am told i should be ignored cuz there is a bigger victim out there, i say freak you, i never asked for biggest victim award, i merely stated a point (if you want to award the biggest victim medal to my puny chest, i aint asking for it, i am only asking to be acknowledged as existing as a man, not a beast).........(slight exaggeration, very little).....

Dont take me so seriously, Ian, and you wont be so disappointed.......but don’t ignore me either, or you will miss out.......

I am not sold on everything i post (much of it makes me wonder, but nor do i totally disagree with what I post)......I don’t believe that gravity is any worse for women than men, for example......i may post something and not give my opinion cuz i want to know how you feel........I may post something and not give my opinion cuz i want to know you the folks who populate these boards feel about what I posted (but i didn’t post what i posted so i could receive personal attacks (I am pretty good at defending myself verbally and will do so from time to time, more often than is good for me, likely, but again, i am dealing with a big issue that generally doesn’t get much play.....political correctness is well endowed with feminist rhetoric (and kudos, great play on words to put down the men's movement....very suave))))))))))))) :)

this stuff has made me think a lot (about what i was taught and what I believed - you wouldn’t hesitate to lend sympathy to a woman raised in a heavily patriarchal family just as you wouldn’t empathize for a second with a man raised in a heavily matriarchal family)........I was raised in a heavily matriarchal family and I dared to question the status quo (as I was taught to question authority, I dared to do so, but what I later learned is that I was supposed to question male authority, not the authority of females)……

I still believe in equality for women, equality of OPPORTUNITY, not necessarily of outcome and i am still trying to figure out what are the implications of that statement (good and bad).........

you might think me crazy or lazy or stupid or angry and unresolved (that don’t make you right and me wrong, that just makes you judgmental).......

I used to say stuff that was as rational and centered as i could get (not necessarily here) and i would have people tell me i was angry and offensive.....Seeing as i had tried as hard as i could to be nice and was attacked anyway, i figured, why not be NOT nice as a point of reference.......

A man i knew and respected once told me that "There is a time to be nice and a time to be NOT nice" (this was a hard lesson to learn since i had been taught to always be nice-some lessons i learned better than others)......

When being nice fails, I tend toward the NOT nice......When my nice behavior is misinterpreted as being a butthole, i often go straight to being NOT nice for a point of comparison....






Don’t be in a hurry Ian…..it will happen when it happens…….you accused me of not posting any links to back up what I said, and now you accuse me of posting too many links (you claim I posted thousands of links….. I find that to be an exaggeration)……..

I posted as many links as I could find that backed up what I was saying…..you can take as long as you like to go through these links and refute them if you are able…….Rather than go through my links and find that I am not as far off as you claim, just ignore my links, claiming there are too many (the more links I post the more you can claim to be false, certainly, they cannot all be correct)…….as crazy as you claim me to be, you couldn’t find links of mine that were way off the top……..maybe what I have to say has some backers besides myself and a far larger audience than most would believe……

If you are unable to refute any of my links, please feel free to attack me personally and the men’s movement in general, it will just indicate that you are at least as shrill as you claim I am.

In one side of your mouth you say, “Don’t be afraid to sound like a pussy” and out of the other side of your mouth you say, “You sure sound like a pussy”…….I know I have my inconsistencies, are you aware of your own?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

This thread and those along the same lines, while having few posts, has lots of reads (whose opinions we don’t know)….these threads are like icebergs (a few folks posting above the water line and most folks having their opinions out of sight, under the water line)…..Knowing how personal the attacks get when one questions the dominant societal meme, it doesn’t surprise me that most folks keep their opinions to themselves until public opinion changes…….

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:32 am 
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I am only 16 and I realize that this is crap, I'm annoyed at some of the differences the way genders are treated, but not to the point of sheer stupidity.

(Posted edited due to content - Admin)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 7:30 am 
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ATH: "You are repeating yourself, again."
IJ: I guess I am responding to a series of nearly identical posts, then.

ATH: "you ...have no interest in helping to resolve those issues (they just seem to like to say, "get help" and run away like a sissy without the guts to hang out and help."
IJ: I have responded to your, er, posts more than anyone else on these forums, ATH, so I don't know why you would want to single me out for sexist insults.

ATH: "I believe it is women (for example.....National organization for women) who claim to be the biggest victims."
IJ: What I HAVE heard from NOW has been a LOT more measured and reasoned than the alarmist posts you favor. And I cannot for the life of me figure out why, in a country where tons of people from all sorts of groups (majority/minority; workers/unemployed; christian/jewish/muslim/atheist; straight/gay; black/white/hispanic/asian etc; poor/rich/middle class; republican/democrat, and so on) are claiming to be victims, you single out women as the biggest complainers. YOU eagerly seek out as much antifeminist material as you can--do you think THAT has anything to do with your perceptions?

ATH: "men are never allowed to claim to be victimized."
IJ: Not at all, and I've acknowledged than men get a raw deal sometimes. I have only challenged your absurd victimization hyperboles. I'M a male and I'VE been victimized--I've been assaulted for being gay, I've been denied a marriage license for that reason, I was denied housing for that reason, I was denied partner benefits for that reason; I've been subject to laws criminalizing my private life and laws that still restrict my employment for that reason. I simply don't want to spend my life being a victim, so, unlike some people, I work for progress without any shrill whining.

ATH: "I am not sold on everything i post (much of it makes me wonder, but nor do i totally disagree with what I post)"
IJ: Most of the rest of us don't spam up the forums with filler. Perhaps you could observe some of these community traditions? You are in Rome.

ATH: "you wouldn’t... wouldn’t empathize for a second with a man raised in a heavily matriarchal family."
IJ: When you assume, you make an as$ out of u and me.

ATH: "why not be NOT nice as a point of reference......."
IJ: Because it's tiresome. And fruitless. And turns people away from your position. And you. Seriously--how has misandry affected YOU? I've never seen any posts from you about how you've been turned away from work, paid less, arrested, had your kid taken away despite stellar behavior, or anything along those lines. Please: thrill us with the details of your persecution.

ATH: "you accused me of not posting any links to back up what I said, and now you accuse me of posting too many links (you claim I posted thousands of links….. I find that to be an exaggeration)…….. "
IJ: If you do not know how to link/backup judiciously, go observe Bill's threads on substantive matters for a while. And don't create issues where there are only figures of speech.

ATH: "In one side of your mouth you say, “Don’t be afraid to sound like a pussy” and out of the other side of your mouth you say, “You sure sound like a pussy”…….I know I have my inconsistencies, are you aware of your own?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
IJ: No. I say neither of those things, because they are offensive to women. You are imagining more slights.

ATH: "Knowing how personal the attacks get when one questions the dominant societal meme, it doesn’t surprise me that most folks keep their opinions to themselves until public opinion changes……"
IJ: ATH, you deliberately incite ire with outrageous and unsubstantiated and just nonproductive posts. Your style of posting is unique because others avoid this. Surely you recognize this. I imagine you're delighting in icbladraptor's post because it was the response you sought. But don't pretend for a moment that the predictable irritation over your posts reflects general misandry, and don't delude yourself that everyone who reads your controversial posts agrees with you in spirit and is unwilling to post because they cannot withstand the so-called personal attacks you shoulder. You're not a martyr. These threads are 95% your noise, and your neighbor asking you to turn it down--and half the time, the police need to be called.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:09 pm 
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Posts: 1348
Location: Somerville, ma.
Akil Todd Harvey wrote:
I have always been a laughingstock in these forums (isnt the plural version of forum, fora? Not sure) so why change now (but thanks for pointing it out)


That's not true. I was pretty surprised when you started posting like this. As I said: outside of this one topic you seem as reasonable as the next guy.

Quote:
i may post something and not give my opinion cuz i want to know how you feel.......


I don't think this is working for you. The problem is that you've posted what appears to be the same thing many times before. The first couple times you started posting this stuff you got a lot of responses. But it hasn't changed and everyone already knows what your opinion is. If you had a new point to make in your own words that would probably be more interesting to people.

Incidentially, from a pure presentation standpoint I find that the lack of formatting in those posted articles makes them hard to read. Normally I overlook that kind of thing, but when it seems like every article you post is pretty much the same I end up thinking it's not worth the effort

What is it you're hoping to accomplish, Akil? Are you just trying to raise awareness of misandry issues? Are you trying to encourage people to care about them? When you make these posts, what is the ideal thread that results?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:53 pm 
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ENOUGH!

This dead horse has been beaten long enough. I'm not locking the thread (yet). Everyone just needs to DROP this one.

I do NOT appreciate having to rely on other admins to help me monitor this childishness. Last Warning...


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:36 pm 
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Let's focus on the personalities and ignore the research......NOT!

I am still waiting to see some reaction to the research.......give credit to where its due, those who dont want to have this disucssion have successfully ignored the research and focused on the personalities of which I have none (not a good one anyway).......

I am in no hurry........I can be ignored for as long as you like.......you can attack me and accuse me of all the emotional distress you want, but that still effectively ignoress the research (which I am quite sure you are eager to do)........

For those who are CONFUSED....my point isnt complicated.......

the domestic violence establishment is not telling us the full truth about domestic violence, and many destructive family law policies have been based on misleading information . Research clearly establishes that women are frequently the aggressors in domestic combat, often employing the element of surprise and weapons to compensate for men's strength.

some men are bad and some are good and some women are good and some are bad......women aint no better than men, but men outnumber men in prison and i dont think it be an accident........that is bad and needs addressing




http://www.nfvlrc.org/

NATIONAL FAMILY VIOLENCE
LEGISLATIVE RESOURCE CENTER

"Advocating for non-discriminatory and evidence-based policies"



http://www.nfvlrc.org/latestResearch.htm
BECOME EDUCATED WITH THE LATEST RESEARCH


http://www.nfvlrc.org/LatestResearch/La ... ponses.htm
Law Enforcement Responses

http://www.nfvlrc.org/LatestResearch/Ge ... rviews.htm
General/Overviews

http://www.nfvlrc.org/LatestResearch/Interventions.htm
Interventions

http://www.nfvlrc.org/LatestResearch/VictimServices.htm
Victim Services

http://www.nfvlrc.org/LatestResearch/Fa ... olence.htm
Family Law and Family Violence

http://www.nfvlrc.org/LatestResearch/Pr ... treach.htm
Prevention, Education and Outreach

http://www.nfvlrc.org/LatestResearch/Re ... ticles.htm
Recommended Articles


http://www.glennsacks.com/octobers_dome ... olence.htm

October’s Domestic Violence Awareness Month
Ignores Many Victims


Coleman, V. (2002). Treating the lesbian batterer. In D. Dutton & D. Sonkin (Eds.), Intimate violence: Contemporary treatment innovations (pp. 159-206). New York: Haworth Maltreatment & Trauma Press.







Carney, M., Buttell, F., & Dutton, D. (2006). Women who perpetrate intimate partner violence: A review of the literature with recommendations for treatment. Aggression and Violent Behavior, in press.


Faigman, D. (1986). The battered woman syndrome and self-defense: A legal and empirical dissent. Virginia Law Review, 72, 619-647.


Moffitt, T., Robins, R., & Caspi, A. (2001). A couples analysis of partner abuse with implications for abuse prevention policy. Criminology & Public Policy, 1 (1), 5-36.


Simonelli, C., & Ingram, K. (1998). Psychological distress among men experiencing physical and emotional abuse in heterosexual dating relationships. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 13 (6), 667-681.


Recommended Books
http://www.nfvlrc.org/LatestResearch/Re ... dBooks.htm


Cook, P. (1997). Abused men: The hidden side of domestic violence. Westport, CT: Praeger.


Dutton, D. (2006). Rethinking domestic violence. Vancouver, B.C.: UBC Press.


Felson, R. (2002). Violence & gender reexamined. Washington , DC : American Psychological Association.


Hamel, J. (2005). Gender-inclusive treatment of intimate partner abuse: A comprehensive approach. New York: Springer.


Mills, L. (2003). Insult to injury: Rethinking our responses to intimate abuse. Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press.

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