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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ian:
eat lots of meat I am also not a peta person and think legitimate research (NOT on cosmetics, which the planet could do without entirely) on animals are beneficial. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me first say that I think the cosmetic industry is one of the most insidious industries, right up there with cigarette companies (cigarettes aren't evil, but the cigarette companies do some truly agregious things). But how do you feel about other consumer items research? Such as things like helmet testing and car safety testing. They don't really need to use animals for those purposes now, since they have pretty good computer modelling. But if there weren't viable alternatives, would you consider it alright to use animals for those sorts of consumer products? What about say, leather products that don't use leftover skin from cows that would be put eaten anyway?

I personally think those uses are acceptable, to the extent that there aren't other viable options. And while I personally hate the cosmetic industry, I can't justify treating them differently from other industries that are essentially the same except that they seem okay to me.

I must apologize to all on this tread. It is irresponsible of me to post a topic and pay so little attention or offer such a low level of participation.

For the past three months I have been trying to negotiate a contract renewal with the government. I have also been fending off a hostile take over,life can be so grand!
The good news is looks like I won. It's down to a final meeting,48 hours to the expiration of the present contract. Things actually may finally work. In two days I'm either dismantling the company of gearing up again.The good news is it is out of my hands and the verdict is forth coming!The facility I train in is part of the deal looks like the Dojo will survive.I train 7 months of the year in the shop.The other 5 months I train in the sunshine,rain and mosquitos.

I suspected that Ian might join us on this post. I am very glad he did we needed the medical and vegetarian knowledge to discuss some of these issues.Ian is the only self proclaimed vegetarian on the post. This post is not to attack Ian's belief's, he has been kind enough to present the other side of the coin ,you meat eaters take it easy on him please.

Ian I would like to thank you for the feed back on my daughters diet.I feel that a vegan diet is not healthy but one can provide all nutrition requirements if eggs,milk and cheese are included in the diet. I will continue to research the nutritional needs of my little girl, thank you for responding to the issue of iron and protein.

This debate seems to have a multitude of threads.
1.benifits and shortfalls of vegan,vegetarian and mixed diets.
2.nutritonal requirements
3. animal rights
4.farming practices
5.environmental practices
6.ethics

And now back to the debate!

Laird

Ian:

1. I agree the irresponsible application of antibiotics is a dangerous thing. The patient not using up a prescription,a doctor over prescribing,or a farmer over medicating will one day kill us all.

2. But the peta people get a bit out of hand?
Like a proclamation that Adolph had a wee problem with Jewish people.

Valkenar,Ian:

What is this animal ethics debate. Food is food, Carrots are living organisms,so is lettuce. No one is ranting and raving when they are eaten raw in salad or boiled alive,grown in crowded fields or stuffed in plastic bags and boxes to die.The pain the romaine suffers is unspeakable,the brutality the beet suffers gives us all nightmares.The stench of the burning onion turned my stomach. Kind of silly no?

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited March 29, 2001).]

All :

What really concerns me with these peta folks is they want to take away a few too may of my rights. To them they are horrid,to me it's part of life,to some of my realitives,it's their life.

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited March 29, 2001).]

1. So why should my Uncle Sandy starve to death so some vegan in LA can feel like he's saving the worlds wildlife.Sandie is in his eighties,is missing part of one lung. He still wanders the bush setting traps,fishing and taping the maples. The land he wanders still has incredible biodiversity.

Today I live in one of Canada's National Parks. This area is a world heritage site. Big deal,the beavers and moose are missing and the wolves have been extinct here three times this century.(protected lands)

The trap line still has all of these species. We have however never killed the large predators. The government has had a bounty on the wolves for the last eighty years. We have harvested none.

When I was a young lad I asked my Grandparents and Father why we didn't hunt or trap wolves. The bounty would have made life much simpler. It was explained to me that if we did this we would eventually starve.The wolves prey on the sick,they clean up the diseased by scavenging. What purpose could dog fur serve,of no value and the bounty would just be spent. The absence of the wolf however might mean that the deer would die off due to disease. This to my family would mean starvation.

No Ian you are not Inuit,I did not suspect you were and neither am I for the record. Food is not about ethics it's about sustenance. You have indicated your preference for your chosen diet.You have also indicated that you would change it if you had to in order to survive. I have chosen mine.

My big issue is how can people try to legislate my diet and way of life out of existence.

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited March 29, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited March 29, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Valkenar:
[B] (cigarettes aren't evil,

I get it cigarettes don't kill, it's the cigarette lighters that are the problem

sorry had to do that

Laird

A point of clarification: most people who are vegetarians don't KILL animals for food. They do however eat eggs and diary. Vegans, on the other hand, are vegetarians who think that all animal products are bad and refuse to eat any of them. Occaisionally I meet a "vegetarian" who eats seafood or chicken. I don't buy it.

Uglyelk: we all know carrots don't feel pain. But the idea that animal suffering is insignificant is counter to many aspects of our culture. We have strict rules about animal care and punish animal cruelty. We neuter to avoid unwanted animals that will suffer. Slaughterhouses are designed to (somewhat) reduce animal fear before death. Rules govern animal killing and research. Everyone posting here would cringe and probably take some action if they saw a pet abused in public or is, in my opinion, a little sick. Reminder: if veggies do feel pain, meat requires it be duplicated many times over since many veggies are needed to feed one animal to slaughter.

Food is about more than sustenance. Otherwise there'd be no reason not to eat humans when we're hungry, and there'd be no rules about killing animals more humanely.

Re: not taking wolves, if removing predators causes the prey to die out, then why are deers overrunning parts of america since we chased off the predators, necessitating organized hunts?

Re: legislating a vegan diet--I wouldn't worry about it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ian:

we all know carrots don't feel pain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm shocked! Ian, you need to get more in touch with your food. Then you'd realize the pain and suffering you're causing these poor innocent veggies!

<- smiley captioned for the humor impaired.

Happy to report scored the contract today,keeps the equipment working and the food on the table for a while longer!

The heavy bag doesn't get moved and I've still got a place to train!

I'll take tonight off on this tread but I'll get back to the good doctor tomorrow. I am beginning to suspect that we shall never agree.

That however does not mean I will agree to be feed with filtered pond scum via the nose tube to make other species comfy.

Laird

Last night I had yummy spicy bean and cheese burritoes with guacamole, chopped lettuce and tomato, chips and salsa and a frozen margarita; this morning I had a yummy cheese omelette and orange juice. Never felt anything was missing. It's a lot like how most americans don't eat (or couldn't eat) kimchee, although a lot of people from Korea would feel cheated (briefly) if their supply was cut off. And it's been over a week since I had filtered pond scum by nasogastric tube. Anyone who eats a less-than-well-done hamburger is, however, consuming fecal bacteria.

That said, deciding not to cause unnecesary suffering is optional and will remain so.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ian:
[B]
And it's been over a week since I had filtered pond scum by nasogastric tube.

Glad to hear you've cut back. Never know when you might kill an innocent micro organism.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ian:
[B]Last night I had yummy spicy bean and cheese burritos with guacamole, chopped lettuce and tomato, chips and salsa and a frozen margarita; this morning I had a yummy cheese omelette and orange juice.

Does sound good! Food should be tasty.

I had chicken beast stuffed with brie & proscuitto,breaded with a pecan/hazel nut mixture.Served with a mango salsa,asparagus with lemon butter,sauteed portabello mushrooms,bread and a pint of pilsner.hmmmmm evil two kinds of meat.

Skipped breakfast.I know, I know. For lunch, Greek salad,bread,milk and a slice of roast beef.

Laird

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited April 02, 2001).]

Damn I wish I had the time and money to eat gourmet foods like brie and portabello mushrooms.