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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2001 4:00 am 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ian:
Anyone who eats a less-than-well-done hamburger is, however, consuming fecal bacteria.


Now you know that's not accurate.

But it's a good point anyway, Hamburger should be cooked to an internal temperature of 160 F this ensures if any ecoli 0157 is present that it's killed in the cooking process.

Hamburger is made from grinding the trim from the meat cutting process. If the meat has been contaminated with fecal material during eviscerating process there is a good chance some of the meat has now been contaminated with e-coli.

If your eating prime rib,filet,strip loin it's not a problem. These cuts if contaminated will only have the bacterial on the outside of the meat.Even if the meat is cooked to a rare stage 120F the bacteria will still be destroyed in the cooking process.

To state that all hamburger contains feces is in accurate . However if the trim has been contaminated with fecal material this bacteria will no longer be on the outside of the meat. It will now have been spread through out the entire batch of meat during the grinding and mixing process.

To state that all hamburger contains fecal material is as accurate as all vegetables and grains contain worms and parasites,it simply isn't true.

Laird


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2001 4:17 am 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Valkenar:

Maybe what I'm saying will seem trivially true to people, but it seems to me that no matter how desirable the old ways of farming were, no matter how ecologically friendly, that it's just not possible to go back to that and still feed as many people as we have, in the society we have. That is, unless a large percentage of the jobs that exist are subsistance farming, it becomes neccesary to have large-scale farms that can process large quantities of food with comparatively little human input. And an unfortunate effect of this is decreased efficiency in term of soil use, even though in terms of human time use it's better.

So that was way off topic and probably uninteresting, innacurate and who knows what else. Well, maybe somebody will enjoy it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sorry for not responding to this, not off topic very much on the money. As a society we are becoming more and more urban as time goes by. AS the population grows and the rural base declines it becomes harder and harder to provide food to the uninvolved masses,without resorting to methods of mass production. Yes this has a negative impact on the environment and the food supply.

Subsistence farming is unattractive,when this is the only financial reality most people move to the city and let some multi national supply there food for them.

We as a society that plays a less and less active roll in the production of our own food now must live with the consequences.

Laird


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2001 4:29 am 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ian:
[B]A point of clarification: most people who are vegetarians don't KILL animals for food. They do however eat eggs and diary. Vegans, on the other hand, are vegetarians who think that all animal products are bad and refuse to eat any of them. Occaisionally I meet a "vegetarian" who eats seafood or chicken. I don't buy it.

There seems to be a lot of types of vegetarianism.

Eating chickens,pro life a contradiction no?

Drinking the milk of the cow,why not the blood,if you just take a bit your not harming the animal no?

How about starfish you can eat a leg and it will just grow back ,kind of like harvesting renewable resources like milk and eggs no?

Laird


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2001 4:57 am 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ian:
Food is about more than sustenance. Otherwise there'd be no reason not to eat humans when we're hungry, and there'd be no rules about killing animals more humanely.


I don't know why but every time I've had a conversation with a none meat eating individual they always have to bring this up. Image

It must be the ultimate evil meat.....man meat. Image

The rules about not consuming people haven't always been with us.The folks in new guinea just gave up "the sweet meat".They however consumed the flesh of man for religious reasons.If you eat your departed relative you keep part of there spirit in your body was the rational.

Other peoples have consumed there enemies,as a way of stealing there power.

While the missionaries were admonishing the folks in some regions not to eat their dead: Their doctors pack in Europe were still prescribing mummy medicine. Mummy medicine as you know is the practice of eating cadaver body parts for medicinal purposes.

ie. arthritic ,Doctor would prescribe a few hands,knees etc. ,you know,the old you are what you eat concept. Image

Todays taboos on cannibalism is based more on common sense. Take the old Hatfield and McCoy feud ,if they had been chowin down on each other they'd still be at it. Think about it someone eats mom or dad the payback would never end.

I believe there also is a brain disease involved as well is there not? I how ever do not condone the consumption of carnivores as I have previously stated. Image

Laird


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2001 5:00 am 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Valkenar:
Damn I wish I had the time and money to eat gourmet foods like brie and portabello mushrooms.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I was celebrating the new contract,normally it's just that fecal covered beef Image

Laird


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2001 5:08 am 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ian:

Uglyelk: we all know carrots don't feel . ]

Hmmmmmmmm, I must of missed the publication of the research Image


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2001 5:23 am 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ian:
me to eat cats, since I don't view cows as below cats ethically, even if they're ugly stupid and smelly.

I don't think cow are ugly,and they are not smelly,what's smelly is all of that half digested vegetable matter they leave all over.


I don't menstruate, to be honest;
Thanks for being honest Ian!
And your not Inut,I feel like I almost know you Image


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2001 5:48 am 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ian:



Re: not taking wolves, if removing predators causes the prey to die out, then why are deers overrunning parts of america since we chased off the predators, necessitating organized hunts?

Not taking wolves was a precaution, Why allow your major food source to be in jeapordy.Nature is not an exact science. The people who live in the natural world tend to have many beliefs that don't impress the scientific minds. The people who live on the land may invoke a simple rule as a result of something in the oral tradition that happened decades or centuries ago. Starvation has a long memory.Not wishing to spend a winter trying to survive on muskrats and other small mammals we just stuck will the rule.

It is real sad that so many large predators have vanished from your country. Why are deer running all over America? Could be a number of things,same thing is happening in parts of Canada as well.

1. Less folks hunting them,food comes from the supermarket for most people these days.

2. Improved habitat, Logging removes old growth forest,It is replaced by new vegetation upon which the ungulates can browse.

3. Increased agricultural lands to feed the growing population also makes exceptional fringe habitat. ( And for my money produces the best tasting venison.Grain feed deer are yummy!)

4. Could be were just looking at a natural spike in population.


Re: legislating a vegan diet--I wouldn't worry about it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ian not worried about this at all,I am however concerned that the political lobby may one day steal my right to hunt,trap,fish,and that their animal rights agenda will drive the cost of my beloved meat out of the reach of the average consumer.



[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited April 02, 2001).]


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2001 6:02 am 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ian:

That said, deciding not to cause unnecesary suffering is optional and will remain so.

Ian I have enjoyed the debate. Don't know were you find the time. I respect your comitment to your values.

You've choosen a career that attempts to defeat death,at least postpone it when possible. The values you have expressed on this thread and others shows your commitment to maintaining life.

I probably will never agree that animals for consumption is cruel etc.

I have however learned more about the vegetarian diet and am more comfortable with my daughters diet.

I will never accept peta's extremists point of view but on that we may also be close.

Laird


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2001 1:47 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 12, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 614
Location: Charlottesville, VA USA
Where do *I* find the time?? Count your posts since my last!! Image

I had, not a month ago, a talk on infectious diarrhea from a specialist at my medical school. He relayed to us the news that american ground beef contains about 10 to the third (1,000) fecal bacteria per gram. The contents of your large bowel contain 10 to the ninth (1,000,000,000). (Food served by street venders in Mexico city contained between 10 to the eighth or ninth.) Sure, the meat is only contaminated if the GI tract is disrupted or contacted. But if you look at videos of slaughterhouses, you'll see them use saws and hit the bladder or colon without stopping, or see the carcass hanging from a hook while the meat is cut to the ground around it. Nothing is stopping blood from dripping from the animals hind end while this is going on. Then, meat from many many animals is mixed, spreading bacteria throughout the batch. The figure my prof gave was unbelievable so I'll just leave it out.

Re deer populations exploding when the predators were removed: the consensus among the biologists who taught my classes, and the people on the nature shows that discuss this subject, is that wolves eat deer reducing their numbers, and when they go away, one sees more deer. I don't doubt that habitat changes encourage the deer to spend more time in the burb's, but I understand their population growth is also an issue in the forest.

Off subject, the comments about docs trying to defeat death are interesting but an extended reply would belong somewhere else. Briefly, I certainly don't find them troublesome, but I've decided (or been taught) that this isn't the point. Mortality, as many of my educators have told me, remains steady at "one per person" despite all our advances. And I've seen the struggle for life (uncomfortable in an ICU) go on far too long, so my goal is going to improve the quality of life as much as extend it, and know (by asking the patient) when extending it is actually BAD.

William Cullen Bryant was 19 when he wrote Thanatopsis in 1814:

"So live, that when thy summons comes to join / The innumerable caravan, that moves / To the pale realms of shade, where each shall take / His chamber in the silent halls of death / Thou go not, like the quarry-slave at night / Scourged to his dungeon, but sustain'd and sooth'd / By an unfaltering trust, approach thy grave / Like one who wraps the drapery of his couch / About him, and lies down to pleasant dreams."
http://www.vcu.edu/engweb/eng372/bryant.htm

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited April 02, 2001).]


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2001 9:44 pm 
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Thought you'd all get a kick out of this one... I've met the author and he wrote this as a piece for a college newspaper recently. I happen to know that he's done the research and isn't writing off the cuff. For some reason, it reminded me of this thread so I asked to reprint here...

<hr>

Fallacies and misconceptions of organic foods

by Alex Knapp

Organic foods are a burgeoning industry in the United States. Although they encompass only about 3% of the total agricultural market in the US, that number is rapidly growing. Organic foods are those that are produced without the use of synthetic chemicals or though genetic engineering. They are also substantially more expensive then conventional foods. It is the opinion of many Americans that organic food is healthier and safer than conventional foods; an opinion that the organic food industry strives to cultivate. However, as former Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman pointed out, "The organic label is a marketing tool. It is not a statement about food safety."

One major misconception about the organic food industry is that their products are not grown using pesticides. This is not entirely accurate. It is true that organic producers do not use any synthetic pesticides. However, they use many "organic" pesticides, which are pesticides derived from natural products. As Alex Avery of the Center For Global Food Issues points out, "Organic pesticides are the most heavily used agricultural pesticides in the U.S." Pesticides used by organic farmers account for over 25% of the total pesticide use in the United States. This figure does not include the most commonly used organic pesticide, Bt, because it cannot be measured in pounds per active chemical use. Also, many other common organic pesticides are not included in this figure because they are not measured, either.

Two of the most common organic pesticides, copper and sulfur, are used as fungicides by organic growers. Because they are not as effective as their synthetic counterparts, they are applied at significantly higher rates. This is disturbing because both sulfur and copper have greater environmental toxicity than their synthetic counterparts. The two most commonly used insecticides by organic farmers are Bt and oil (usually petroleum or soybean oil). However, a substantial amount of oil has to be used to achieve the same results as synthetic insecticides. Other organic pesticides are generally extracted from plants. One such pesticide, pyrethrum, has a demand satisfied by the hand harvest of about 600 million flowers per year. This accounts for a significant amount of green space that could otherwise be used as wildlife preserve or to grow food.

One type of pesticide that organic growers admittedly do not use, in any form, are herbicides. However, the development of herbicides has led to low-till farming methods that significantly decrease soil erosion and increase the sustainability of agricultural land. Bereft of this option, organic growers must rely on methods that lead to increased soil erosion, unless they maintain a strict crop rotation schedule.

Another type of pest control used by organic growers is so-called "biocontrol" techniques. This type of pest control relies on insects, fungi, or bacteria to destroy pests that are harmful to crops. Organic farmers promote this as a less environmentally damaging method of pest control. However, the introduction of such biocontrol can have a debilitating effect on local ecosystems. Since most biocontrol organisms are not native to the areas in which they are employed, they have led to substantial ecological devastation in several areas.

Not only do organic farmers make the claim that their products are environmentally safe, they also claim that organic products are healthier. However, there is no evidence that this is the case. As a US News and World Report article stated, "organic foods are no richer than other varieties in vitamins, antioxidants, and other nutrients. In addition, organic produce causes an increased risk of food poisoning. According to the CDC, in 1996, the last year for which data is available, 36% of people suffering from E. coli O157:H7 infection contracted it from organic food. This strain of E. Coli is particularly vicious-it kills thousands of people every year, and can cause substantial damage to the liver or kidneys. Organic foods are susceptible to E. Coli infection because manure and compost are commonly used fertilizers in organic farming, and both often contain large amounts of the bacteria. In response to the claim of E. Coli infection, Whole Foods Market, Inc., an organic producer, issued a statement that composting should eliminate the risk of infection. However, composting is generally performed at 130° to 140°, but temperatures of 160° are necessary in order to kill this E. Coli strain.

Although organic farms make the claim that their products are better for the environment, produce less toxic chemicals, and are safer and healthier, the facts do not seem to bear these claims out. Although it is true that there are potential long-term health threats stemming from the use of synthetic fertilizers, the evidence for such a threat has yet to be substantiated in the nearly 40 years since this danger was first identified in Rachel Carson's Silent Spring. However, the risks of using organic foods are known and substantiated. This is not to say that organic foods are substantially unsafe-feel free to eat organic. Just be aware that the extra bucks that you're shelling out don't provide an extra dime of safety or nutrition.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2001 6:31 pm 
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Posts: 614
Location: Charlottesville, VA USA
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60798-2001Apr9.html

Confirms that eating meat causes suffering. One can decide to deny that but one cannot change it. I guess this is why the site offers a "disturbing" and gruesome video but urges potential viewers to use caution when viewing it because they might not want to know what kind of industry they're actually participating in.

I'm more inclined to support hunting deer in many cases. If the hunter knows what s/he is doing, death comes faster, and since this is nature, hunting is a part of the game. Not one I'm excited about, but, something needs to replace the predators driven away in many areas.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2001 6:46 pm 
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Ian,

Thanks for the link...

There's just no excuse for torturing any animal... well, with the exception of the two-legged ones that prey on (other) humans. Image

Oh yeah... one other thing... You've convinced me. Not to give up meat, but to be careful to only eat meat that is duly hunted/harvested by my hunting friends... Looks like more veggies in my future. Image Then again, maybe it will help me lose the spare (truck) tire. Image





[This message has been edited by Panther (edited April 10, 2001).]


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:53 pm 
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Posts: 614
Location: Charlottesville, VA USA
A diet based in vegetables with additional lean protein (dairy, egg, or sparingly used meats especially fish and poultry) will help you reach your ideal weight, prevent a number of types of cancers, prevent or even reverse heart disease, as well as other vascular diseases of the brain, kidney, and peripheral circulation, prevent or reverse diabetes and help with high blood pressure, prevent colonic diverticuli and hemmorhoids, help you feel more energized, and meet all the needs you have for protein (you may need more than occaisional protein rich foods if you're a hard core muscle guy).

I say go for it!


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2001 10:18 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ian:

I say go for it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Done... Well almost... I have a huge juicy steak in the frig waiting for me to get home. Image My only problem is going to be getting myself into a nice "zen" state to eat it after seeing that video. Image


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