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For English measurement and Scotch, Laird, I'll take the Fifth! When I worked on cars I thought American tools (English system) were the coolest. Binary measurement systems will always be more accurate than decimal measurement systems. Fact binary anything is better than most decimal anything because decimal is contrived and binary is natural.
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I wish Ian wouldn't get his feelings hurt so much. People "attack" him far less often then he gives credit. If you're coming to New England, Ian, it's good to develop thick skin because New Englanders have the reputation for being cold-hearted hardy individuals.

BTW, Ian, what is that internet-driven cheating scandal for grades that is going on right now at The University of Virginia? Apparently it seems pretty huge.
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The reason the Polar Ice Caps are rising, Gene, is because all those newfangled nuclear subs keep insisting on forcing their way up to pierce the ice with their periscopes so they can take celestial navigation readings.

Don't forget the Ross Ice Shelf in Antarctica is in danger of breaking away and the giant glacier in Washington State is receding at unprecedented levels. Global warming is a real concern, and if it assumes a non-linear trend we'll all be dead in a few years.

The Pilgrims also laid (no pun] the law on sex too, and there are some pretty nasty sex rules in Massachusetts laws that can get you locked up.

It's difficult enough understanding native-born English-speaking people when at the supermarket, business dealings on the phone, and at Burger King. Foreign nationals who do not have a good command of OUR language add another layer of complexity in the world of understanding.

The personal jab thing annoyed me to the point it did for several reasons: 1) there are places on this forum where no one would dream make those comments because the standard of conversation and politeness is higher 2) there are places here where if *I* made them I'd be sanctioned immediately, probably booted for good 3) they were repeated after complaint 4) I don't make them 5) the last one implied I had 6) instead of addressing the issue of insulting posters the semantic point that the exact word "peon" wasn't used is made 7) I'm chided for bringing up JUST this point, although I explain why--others had been rehashed enough.

Basically if I made those comments to certain individuals, people who would chide me for being sensitive would be calling for my blood. And my model has always been one of equal treatment. But let this issue die. I can always post to forums whose etiquette suits me.

That curve, the one where people roll repeatedly, could be made safer for what I wager is about the cost of one good accident. Sure, individuals who crashed were probably speeding. They can be blamed. But if you present a dangerous road, or product like a cigarette you know is addictive and dangerous, to a POPULATION, you know that people WILL roll, or die from smoking. I wouldn't want to bear knowingly putting a dangerous product on the road or in the stores knowing people WILL die as a result. I made that decision, and figuring out WHICH exact people died and holding them responsible for bad decisions won't change the fact that I knowingly created situations without which they would be alive and well.
For roads, I call that an engineering failure. For cigs, I call that bodies for cash.

Let's take down our barriers, our shoulders, gentle curves, banked curves; let's design trickier roads we know can be driven safely at very low speeds but that we know will be unsafe at the speeds people commonly will drive them. And watch the death count rise predictably. Why bother to make roads safe, if they're at fault? And then what? Score one for liberty? Now they're free to feel more results of bad decisions. I can't fathom the type of conscience that would be unbothered by the change. Go talk to the families of the dead if making a decision that lead to a death (admittedly with other ingredients, but ones you knew were around) isn't enough to sway you. THEIR loss is one they had less control over than you did. [Maybe they DID do everything possible to encourage their relative's safety, before someone points that out].

"while making me out to be a cold, heartless scoundrel." Scoundrel? Didn't say that. Cold? I think you make the case yourself, by expressing NO human sympathy when, say, a prostitute ruins her life by getting AIDS and (as could reasonably occur) giving it to several customers (and their unsuspecting wives) and her child who is born unwanted and dies without knowing caring parents. Not for her or her customers (we all make mistakes, according to you) or even for the wives or children that die uncomfortably though no fault of their own. It's all "so?" to you. Like it doesn't matter.

Well I've talked with a lot of people who've suffered the results of bad decisions; some realize the error of their ways too late, some continue their destructive behavior. Many made decisions--poor driving choices, amount they drank or smoked or fat they ate, that turned out bad for them but others who took the same risk made it out fine, to look down on them disapprovingly. Even for those who never repent... I feel something. I don't think "cold" is an unfair characterization to use for someone who can brush off so much suffering with a "so?"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Allen M.:
[B]For English measurement and Scotch, Laird, I'll take the Fifth!

Careful Allen that much single malt can kill a man

When I worked on cars I thought American tools (English system) were the coolest.

When I was young and poor....well less well off,I owned an english car and it did ******! It did how ever always start in the winter as long as I could find another person to help. One turned the manual crank on the flywheel.The other sat in the drivers seat and operated the manual choke and throttle.

Binary measurement systems will always be more accurate than decimal measurement systems. Fact binary anything is better than most decimal anything because decimal is contrived and binary is natural.

Natural Measurement,I once wrote a recipe book for a salad bar in a restaurant.You know 24 head romaine the juice of 12 medium lemons two hand fulls of rosemary etc. It worked great for a while. One day our salad bar guy left.(he was 6 foot 220 lbs)His replacement was a 4 foot 11 inch women with really tiny hands. Everything tasted kind of bland after that had to resort to the old measuring cup after that.

Yes we went metric but the measuring deciliter just hasn't made it into our vocabulary yet.
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I wish Ian wouldn't get his feelings hurt so much. People "attack" him far less often then he gives credit. If you're coming to New England, Ian, it's good to develop thick skin because New Englanders have the reputation for being cold-hearted hardy individuals.

I was going too mention thick skin but I was afraid folks might perceive me too be one of those extreme conditioning people.


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The reason the Polar Ice Caps are rising, Gene, is because all those newfangled nuclear subs keep insisting on forcing their way up to pierce the ice with their periscopes so they can take celestial navigation readings.

I always thought the excess consumption of great beer in Nova Scotia was the cause. You know all that resulting flatulence burning a hole in the ozone.

Laird

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited May 10, 2001).]

Seat belts ,do they save lives or do they just hold the dead bodies inside the vehicle making them easy to find?

Why must my safety be dictated by others,don't I get a say in my own welfare. What is next legislate the diet I must eat if I don't like it force feed me? Give me my gun!

Why is it that if seatbelts are such lifesavers why are they not required in any school bus in North America.

Laird

The election is over, if the country holds together for about four more years you all can vote again

Don't be offended but enough all ready.No sense arguing about the rules of the game after it's over learn from it and do it better next time.

Laird

War is War ,Dead is Dead. Humane death and more gentle death concepts tend to be prevalent among folks who don't have to fight those wars. That's my own opinion with no supporting data points. Please don't be offended but I feel it doesn't matter how the heck the body is destroyed. Nuke em shoot em drop a smart bomb or a load of napalm on em there still dead. The goal is to wound many so many get stuck carrying them
and that leaves less of them to fight.

No War isn't pretty,it's a reality unto it's own.Kill them nicely,give us a break.

Laird

The big Cat is right ,when in Rome........
Multilingual scenarios' just don't work well.
Canada has dabbled for ever with official bilingualism. It's cost billions and it still doesn't work.

Hell the 75 or 80% of us english speaking folks are subject to fines if we put up to many english signs in one province. Makes me happy to see bilingual signs in the high Arctic while knowing if a store keeper is fined back in Quebec if he has too much English,Cantonese or Korean signage in his shop.(no fine for too much french signage.)

The Swiss have triligualism,but rumors have it that the German Swiss call the shots.

The main rule,one language and when you conquer a people either deport them or assimilate them.

If not you will fight those battles again and again and again.

Laird

Whats that on the back of my neck.....must be sunburn

Ian sincere congratulations on your MD degree. I understand that this is a very demanding degree and therefore you have worked hard.

You have earned the right to possibly practice medicine,you have not earned the right to respect just because you have had good fortune,intelligent and perseverance to make it through to the end of Medical school.

Respect my dear doctor is earned not owed,you have earned your degree,the other is up to you. Respect is won through actions not studies.

Please don't be offended as that is not my intent. You have every right to be proud for you have accomplished a great deed. Many who went before you have also failed. You have the right to hold your head high.

I have met many professionals whom garnered no respect from me,and I have met many a person with less than a high school education whom I have held in the utmost position of respect.The difference....there actions.

Just food for thought

Laird

Ian, you feel that our dentition does not define us as carnivores and instincts still don't make violence right.

Sorry to paraphrase but I think that's close no?

I suggest that it's the modern urban lifestyle that creates all our modern problems. If we were to admit we were carnivores,aggressive beings and lived accordingly we would be better off.

Panthers going oh no he's going to talk about the inner child! Close the primal self,We would se a lot less problems in society if folks could get back in the bush for a while and live naturally. Does a body good to go on a hunt,even if your not successful,puts you in touch with your roots.Put your body back in time with the sun instead of the alarm clock.Slow down and smell the wind,feel the sun,watch shadows grow.

Try it you might be surprised who you find in the bush.

We are carnivores,prey species have eyes on the side of the head,eat grass and have really complex digestive systems. Getting away and feeling the natural rhythms of the world will do more good than any prescription for tranquilizers out there.

more brain candy

Laird

tomorrow the myths of global warming revealed

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ian:

Everything else has been rehashed enough and the people reading it have long ago made up their minds...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I'm certain that they made up their minds irrespective of your characterization of our postions in the debate to place yourself in such a good light while making me out to be a cold, heartless scoundrel.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But the above quote deserves a comment.

I brought up my graduation after you decided to attack ME and not my arguments.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) I already apologized because you felt that it was a personal attack. AGAIN, I apologize for any personal attacks that I may have made. (I readily admitted, from the first, that I was giving you a jab... It wasn't meant to be hurtful. I even pointed out that we all, me especially, make mistakes and I was having my fun at what I percieved was one of your flubs...) AGAIN, I'm very sorry.

2) While I admit that as an error on my part in this discussion and debate, I must tell you that in all the posts and counter-posts, for that to be the thing that you come back to, especially given my previous apology at hurting your feelings, is... nevermind.

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I don't recall calling others "peons". I have used the terms "Communist, Statist, Socialist, Facist, and modern liberal" for someone who espouses the ideals that are inherent to those various ideologies... If the shoe fits, Ian. And I truly do believe that those who push those ideals, while perhaps not hating this country, are in the process of destroying this country.

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Guess I touched a nerve. Here it is again...

You wrote: "The parallel is, we can always say all these people drove too fast and therefore got hurt or died thru their own fault. I'd rather say we built a good road (gentle curve or guardrail) and never had to say it was their fault."

I replied: "there are lots of reasons that a road may or may not have the "gentle curve" you desire... The engineers have to take many things into consideration, from the lay of the land to the amount of area that is available to the costs of the project..."

You get upset: "Of course I know the lay of the land may impose restrictions on engineers, and its insulting for you to point that out, or imply that I thought life was super simple because I didn't fill in what I thought readers could supply on their own."

I respond: "Sorry... You're the Doctor... I'm just the patriot peon who's debating you."

Having previously Congratulated you on your imminent MD-hood and wished you and your future patients all the best, I erroneously thought you'd get the self-deprecating humor that was intended. My mistake. I should have used a at the end.

This stuff gets really touchy for you doesn't it? Sorry about that.

Sincerely, Good luck to you and all your patients.

Nobody knows the reason the North Pole Ice Cap has risen. But the fact that the thick ice melted through is of great concern. Also, there is a documented loss of permafrost throughout the world. GLobal Warming? I don't know. Shoudl we wait until the coastal cities worldwide are underwater to find out? Reminds me of science fiction story I once read. THere was this scientist, Jor-El on the planet Krypton. HE said one day the planet is heading for a catastrophic, cataclysmic ending. But none of his peers believed him, and he was made a laughing-stock. So, he built a rocket ship...

You probably know the rest...

If you don't want to pay for the crack whore bastards, then let's prevent the crack whores from ever coming into being. An ounce of prevention...

I always felt sheepish when I found out that a classmate was working a full-time job, on top of student loans and grants to pay for school. Made me feel somewhat embarrassed. On the other hand, a high school friend of mine went to college at Mary Washington COllege, in Virginia. He used to get chased and get into fights with the Rednecks who resented the college sissies (their words). There are un-elightened people on both sides of the economic and intelligence spectrum.

The Mayflower settlers came to the Now World for economic opportunity and religious freedom (you knew that). But they themselves had a bit restrictive society. For example, they levied fines if you did not attend Sunday church services, even if you weren't of their religion). They also ex-communicated men who did not engage in intercourse with their wives Maryland was the only colony that allowed religious freedom. Baltimore (the man) was a Catholic, but a friend of the King. And until the Bill of Rights was adopted, Jews and Catholics were prohibited from holding public office in Massachusetts...

What do the rest of us do when the prevalent language in use becomes something other than English?

The people I've met from Germany, Italy, Poland and even Japan all know English, as it is an educational requirement. But, the people from England and Australia that I've met don't know a lick of another other language, just like us Americans.

"I will always chose Personal Freedom over your, government's or anyone else's intrusion."

Here's the quandry that we, as free men and women, will always find ourselves in:

Indivual Liberty vs. the Common Good

Did you know that the lactating females in a pride of lions take turns nursing each others cubs? Just thought you might want to know that too...

UglyElk:

Seatbelts ought to be required in schoolbuses. However, one or two reasons they are not: those vehicles are large and move more slowly, so there is less likely to be a bunch of kids knocked around inside than if they were in a smaller faster vehicle. Yes, I know they get on the highway sometimes. They should have seatbelts. That they don't but should is not an argument against belt laws, just a separate failing in our culture.

Re: elections. "Learn from it and do it better the next time." What do you think I'm talking about doing? I haven't suggested dethroning anyone. I'm advocating a system that records voter intent with better fidelity. To learn from it... well we need to talk about it right? Can't analyze it silently.

Hiroshima: If you've been reading, you saw that I suggested our goal was NOT to kill and wound potential foes but to kill and wound civilians, testing our new weapon and making a point to russia. That's different from something we have to do to win the war and protect our own--I'm all for those things no matter how mean they seem. "Kill them nicely, give us a break." No holds barred eh? There are rules even in war, most Americans would agree. No raping, no torturing, no genocide, things like that--even if it helpfully saps their will to fight even more than nuking them. Call me a nut, but most of the western world is behind me on this. There are ways and targets of killing and wounding that are frowned upon.

"You have not earned the right to respect just because you have had good fortune, intelligent [sic] and perseverance to make it through to the end of Medical school."

*My* philosophy on this differs from yours. You say respect isn't given till its earned. I think we should respect people because they're people--automatically--until they give us reason to do otherwise. With your method, since on this forum great distances separate us and we often don't know each other, we'd be treating each other disrespectfully for a long time. (That'd be an "action" I couldn't respect). If you're going to use "actions" as a prerequisite for respect, I would think the burden would be on you to find out what someone's actions were before you declined to extend them respect. For example, your post indicates that in medical school what I did was a lot of "studies," but I hadn't presented any respect worthy "actions."

What do you think we do in med school for 4 years? Just read books? If you want to know about some actions that go on there, (or hey, I've performed some actions elsewhere as well) I'll email 'em to you. But it'd be a little bizarre if we all had to circulate stories of our great deeds before we could all expect some politeness during debates from one another.

Re: dentition. I don't feel it doesn't define us. I know it. Ask a biologist or a nutritionist if our teeth say which foods we ought to eat. They'll support veggies and lean protein sources--but not because of our teeth.

Examine the dentition of a lion (undisputed carnivore) and cow (undisputed grazer, with 4 chamber fermenting stomach) and human (unspecialized dentition). I am not claiming our teeth make us vegetarians. I am saying they don't tell us what food is best for us and that they don't tell us about morals at all. Humans have brains and tools and hands. We kill and eat our prey not with our mouths, but with tools. Given that, we can eat whatever we want. Like we eat nuts even though we lack a natural tool for eating them--like a bird's beak.

Primates have binocular vision in large part because they needed 3d sight to swing from branches. Agreed, prey species have eyes on the sides of their heads to give them more warning time. But another way to say this is that binocular vision doesn't make us predators, it means we aren't usually prey. (Doesn't mean humans don't get killed by animals though).

Anyway, one instinct I know we humans have is to seek shelter and comforts, say from the modern world, over the harsh realities of nature. This is true even as we return to it--clothed, with packaged food, gear, cars, etc. Few would hunt in the woods naked and cold. Renders your whole instincts theory self-contradictory: getting back to instincts in part means getting away from nature.

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited May 10, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ian:

The personal jab thing annoyed me to the point it did for several reasons: 1) there are places on this forum where no one would dream make those comments because the standard of conversation and politeness is higher<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't disagree with that.

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Perhaps. I kind of doubt it, but you never know. However, since this is my forum, I feel qualified to tell you that no one has been censored here... And I've let some pretty inflammatory things slide... even when I was urged privately by some to flush those things. We lost some in the recent computer problems, but I can assure you that I haven't trashed anyone... yet.

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I do not believe this is a fair assessment. I made an observation about a statement and (unfortuantely) tossed out a flippant question about going to college. When you complained, I apologized... more than once. I congratulated you on becoming an MD and wished you good luck... more than once. I used your new credentials as part of a witty self-deprecating come-back. If that's the repeated time you're referring to, I explained that... and apologized, yet again.

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No? OK... fine...

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I apologize! OK?

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You done picking nits yet?

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You just can't accept an apology and let it go...

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Yes, let it die... However, there hasn't been any etiquette problem on this forum. You complained, an apology was given, you complained louder, another apology was given, and here we are again...

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Didn't say you said it, said that's what you did... and you do it alot. That's OK, it's one of your ways of debating and we all know that.

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That's right. I have NO human sympathy... That's a completely fair characterization of the points I'm trying to get across... What I have no sympathy for are people, like you, that refuse to hold others accountable for their own actions and would rather over-regulate those of us who do take personal responsibility for our actions with your Ideal Utopia, essentially a Facist State.

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That's right... You don't have a valid point if you are willing to hold people personally responsible for their actions and not try to prevent their mistakes through prior restraint! That's the point of responding to your preaching with an attitude like it doesn't matter...

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Your opinion... That's fine. I won't complain. Just as those situations, you having your opinions and these various forums allowing you to express them openly here is part of life... no matter how misguided I feel they are.


[This message has been edited by Panther (edited May 10, 2001).]

"You done picking nits yet?" Yeah. Like I said, I was willing to let the matter die, as you said, to "accept an apology and let it go." Which is what I was doing--I wasn't replying to YOU, but to the two additional people who jumped aboard this particular subtopic. Don't be surprised. I (like you) am not one to receive a criticism I don't agree with and not reply.

Scoundrel*: "a disreputable person; rascal"

I didn't SAY that or IMPLY it, despite charges to the contrary. I said you expressed no sympathy ("so?") when confronted with a situation that involved the difficult illness and death of prostitutes, customers and innocent victims including children and unsuspecting spouses. That's less an opinion than a restatement of what you wrote.

Fascist*: "often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control."

Now THAT's a blatant mischaracterization of Ian if I EVER read one. Over regulate you... by putting a sign or lights up to prevent you from rolling your car? Goodness, Panther, would you be upset if I fought for your water to be clean / flouridated (back when it wasn't) or sent you a brochure on vaccinations or asked about your diet at the doctor's office? Or encouraged the right decision about smoking (yes, that's a judgment of mine), by levying taxes to discourage it AND help pay for the care they will need later which will otherwise come out of MY pocket?

Let me ask you this... is what *I* propose, initiating efforts to reduce situations we know will cause unneeded deaths or illness, incompatible with holding individuals responsible?

Ok, I admit, that was rhetorical.

*Merriam Webster online dictionary.

[This message has been edited by Ian (edited May 10, 2001).]