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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:45 pm 
Well that was a good post

but I had an argument with a guy last night at my TC club :D .....he was saying about the "Master" being able to do this and that :roll: .and how practising slowly would make you quick. My responce at the time was to the effect that.

I started martial arts after getting into more fights than I care to remmember, in the process of those fights I started to pick up techniques.stuff that worked, at first I just used to "Mill"...then I learned how to head butt, and kick to the groin..all of these things were one shot fight stoppers if they landed.in theory at least, in practise you would have to throw a few techniques.so you may grab a guys lapels and butt him two or three times and varying the target..the nose,then the chin or the eyebrows.........all this would be against a backdrop of continuos frenzied punching and clawing.
My argument was to the effect that I was now programmed to fight like that and that it was based on experience of fighting.............some stuff that I had done like weight training punching bags etc would help me greatly because they would add to what I did, whereas all the fancy locks and takedowns and kata that I did would not.simply because they had been learned in a friendly club environment.
So How do you judge a "Master"?...even if he doesn't call himself such??..................I dunno personnally :roll: ....I don't class myself as such but I've met a few whose heads I could rip off :twisted: :twisted: ...one was even a "Grandmaster" :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:26 pm 
:lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:58 am 
I guess the question might be:

“Does a real master NEED to be called one?”

I post on these forums to “George” and to “Van” and when David Mott came to town he was “David” or on the dojo floor “Sensei.”

I am sure there are others posting here who would well deserve the “title” but none of the above folk have ever asked me to call them “Master.”

And I feel the title applies to each of the men mentioned.

So what does that tell us? :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:44 am 
Yeah I agree :D
however this is one of those subjects with too many different perspectives to it. With karate there is the art and the science and it can be measured aesthetically or by how effective it is, or in terms of the effect subjectively or objectively ( i.e. the effect on yourself, health fitness etc, or on others when they attack you :lol: ) :wink:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:35 pm 
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As was said...Master of what? Master of a kata? Bah humbug!!

I see this term being applied to folks who mainly have 'a lot of time in.' Big deal. Doesn't impress me in the least and in fact when the typical sensei calls himself "Master" it almost makes me want to challenge them...because the term is so over the top, especially for those who clearly have Mastered the art of stagnation and refined it into the perfection of form without substance – the highly refined art of the white belt Master. :lol:

My teacher was referred to as Grand Master but in the school we all called him Sifu... The same was true of his teacher Ip Man, and of Bruce.

Those who would be called MA masters should posses skills of such a high level as to astound onlookers and would be challengers. In the old days as today people will come and check you out. As a world renown school we used to have people do just that quite often and yes there was a 'master' or two around who would happily arrange a painful demo for anyone wishing one. These folks were masters of a kind and had the skills and ability to put it on the line, yet they were never called master...

Do the 'masters' of today have the ability to back it up? If they don't they had better be prepared to be embarrassed should they find themselves being tested in the unfair proving grounds of the street or even on the dojo floor. If they can't or are unwilling to then they shouldn't dare call themselves such as thing, or even allow others to do so.

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:04 pm 
Hi jim
Yeah I kind of agree with those sentiments.......but you don't get many Thai boxers or boxers referred to as "Master" .I wonder why that is :?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:54 pm 
You're the best, Jim! :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:57 pm 
Good post Jim ...

should a Master accept a challenge match made in the right spirit ?

how should one go about this ?

have to admit it , I have the same thoughts ....


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:10 pm 
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JimHawkins wrote:
Do the 'masters' of today have the ability to back it up? If they don't they had better be prepared to be embarrassed should they find themselves being tested in the unfair proving grounds of the street or even on the dojo floor. If they can't or are unwilling to then they shouldn't dare call themselves such as thing, or even allow others to do so.


Does that mean an older Sensei like Master Tomoyose no longer deserves the title if he can no longer take on some young MMA guy? Doesn't the accrued knowledge and the ability to pass that on to the next generation count for as much, or perhaps more, than being able to take some punk on in the street?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 12:35 am 
True , shouldnt a master though be the top dog ?

how many masters should a style have , are all the extra masters claiming the know as much as the true masters ? Tomoyose etc .....

just more food for thought .


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:20 am 
Asteer:

Nope, may be only those who lay claim.

Tomoyose would be one of those who would not and yet would deserve it.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:16 am 
Well, I remember a conversation from 20 years or more ago I was talking with my aikido sensei, he's also fought internationally at Judo, and when he had gone to Japan to take part in a judo tournement he stayed on and learned aiki.
anyway I asked him if he had seen any old mastere and if they were any good. He told me he had seen a demonstration by one old Sensei. the guy had been doddery and old, badly co-ordinated....in a word cr*p, but the young Japanese who watched him were saying how wonderful and marvelous he was.sensei explained that the Japanese venerate the old...unlike in the West :) and that may be part of it.however on a nother forum they were asking what boxer you could fight using your Ma.............I reckon I could take Ali :lol: :lol: ........and I mean now but never in his prime :roll: .so I guess there is a lot to this question :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:18 pm 
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Asteer wrote:
Does that mean an older Sensei like Master Tomoyose no longer deserves the title if he can no longer take on some young MMA guy? Doesn't the accrued knowledge and the ability to pass that on to the next generation count for as much, or perhaps more, than being able to take some punk on in the street?


If in fact a 'master' does possess the sum total (or damn close) of martial knowledge for that style, if he in fact did train it and cultivate it and is able to pass it on.. And of course it all depends on what we mean by "it"...

The old Chinese masters, and I do mean OLD.. Where quite well in tune with the very martial purposes of their styles and were aware of the importance of being able to walk the walk even in their later years... When 4' 11" Ip Man, was well into his golden years he was still well known for accepting 'tests' of his ability and blowing away young and energetic students on a daily basis and otherwise whooping butt. His knowledge and his skill was clearly at a very advanced level by today's standards and having actually reached this level he and other's like him despite being quite old were also quite spry and enjoyed "playing" with their students. ;)


An excerpt from this month's Inside Kung fu that illustrates this point:

Quote:

Master Brendan Lai:

I remember fighting Chang Dung Sheng, a Grand Master of Shuai Chiao. Though 85 years old, Master Chang was a powerful man. He entered my shop as a guest. After some discussion he said, “I understand that you are quite fast. If you would like to strike me, I would like to see if I can beat it.” I believed that in the narrow confines of the shop there was no place for him to evade me, so I agreed and said, “Are you ready?” He indicated that he was, so I charged him, attacking with all my strength. To my surprise, I found myself flying through the air. I landed on my feet behind him. Though I had already assumed a fighting posture, I knew that I had been bested. I saluted him in acknowledgement of the greatness of the man. From that day on he was my hero.


Lots of examples of older Masters exhibiting such abilities, even in their later years, still exuding the enthusiasm for the martial in their martial art and in their own mastery of their art. These folks were in it for, and acknowledge the martial beauty in their beloved art.

Go visit some of the old Hong Kong masters, if you can find them, they all take pride in teaching clever systems of whoop ass... They have no illusions about the purpose of their beloved systems and what they are for: They are for fighting, and fighting smart, fighting cleverly and fighting effectively, they take great pride in this and although some may find it distasteful many were more than happy to be tested or otherwise perform a few 'tricks' for curious visitors. This is the kung fu, especially the Hong Kong kung-fu tradition.

The question is what is the martial tradition of your style and does the would be 'master' honestly exemplify this?

---------------------------------------------------

Not all that sure about Karate; but let's look at what the actual meaning of Master is in kung fu:

In the Chinese tradition of kung-fu training a Master is really the inheritor of the family’s system, which is regarded as a valued family treasure, a gift and a heritage a vessel in a sense of that family’s martial honor and spirit. There was normally only one of these senior disciples per generation, a special student, a trustworthy student, a talented student and a dedicated student. This special student, often a first son, would be taught the entire system and all available knowledge of the system would *eventually* be passed to him and normally only him.

This disciple is the 'first son' of the style and clan for his generation, when his training is complete and the old master either retires or passes on this leadership role is officially transferred to this student, at which time he becomes the “Master.” This means that HE now represents the style both in form and in functionality in combat, very simply at this point he IS the style. It is this disciple’s honor and his responsibility to accept challenges for the style, train the style, preserve the style and even make changes to the style if and when he feels it is necessary.

The knowledge passed to this disciple includes not simply forms and drills but a complete understanding and functional ability in all the combative lessons, all the combative movements and all combative theory in the system, and perhaps more importantly, exactly how and why the style is taught or transmitted to cultivate its unique set of martial attributes within its followers to create a functional fighter of that style.

So what’s a Master?

You decide if Master X can lay a claim of this magnitude and back it up. :D

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:13 pm 
Yeah that is just Chinese Martial arts what about the Thais...............imagine Ip Chun against a top Thai boxer.chicken Chow Mein :lol: :lol: The chinese have sone nice clever styles and stratagies but against the strength of youth I don't really think an old bloke would have much chance..........that's why we have firearms and knives :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:53 pm 
jorvik wrote:
against the strength of youth I don't really think an old bloke would have much chance..........that's why we have firearms and knives :lol:


HAH HAH! Man, you are so right! I thought I was gonna get to my 3rd round in sparring Friday when I got into the ring with a 18 or 19 year old hispanic kid that is probably 60-80 lbs lighter then me. This kid beat my ass! He socked me so hard in the eye, I woke up hanging on the ropes, not knowing where the hell I was! Damn! Almost got through the second round! Today, my eyeball is swollen and sore and my sinuses hurt on the left side. It's even bleeding a little... hah hah! yeah, no masters here...


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