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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:21 am 
I think it`s a better definition but maybe Master is an unfortunate english translation .

To master something is to have control over it , to master a style seems comparative to mastering violence .... :roll:

Its lost on me .... :oops: :?

I know it`s all symantics :)

Any time you want to discuss the boring/intellectual stuff Jim i`m game :lol: 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:23 am 
Quote:
Anyone can and will get there ass kicked .... Truth


hey Jorvik ? , did you say this ? :oops: :lol: 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:46 am 
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But the idea is, I think, Master of a given style, this, for WCK would mean one hell of an achievement, lots of (known) skills/material to cover let alone to be good at and tactically one hell of an arsenal if you did cover and 'master' all the skills.

At least here you can say - here is the material - do it - do it all - do it well and your a master, someone fluent in the combat language of the system. While immense at least this goal is definable. These steps exist if one wishes to walk them and train these specific skills, there is a tangible progression, not a mystical, invisible set of standards that may eventually translate into X.

But cutting through the BS there are very few who could really claim this. Most masters have not even mastered their style.

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:26 am 
Martial Arts come from a big ball of wax. What makes "style" is emphasis and negligence on any of it's aspects. If I emphasis punching and neglect kicking, guess what I have? boxing. The whole concept of "style" is inhibiting because there is so much out there.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:42 am 
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The Bronze Dago wrote:
If I emphasis punching and neglect kicking, guess what I have? boxing. The whole concept of "style" is inhibiting because there is so much out there.


I would say if you emphasize certain types of punches, targets and movement and exclude all else - you have boxing.. ;)

True that it specializes. A style is a specialization and the truth is that people do need to specialize because there is only so much time we have to learn and train..

A martial art though will and should address more than one range, it should not exclude any range but will specialize in one.

WCK is not a style as much as it is an idea and search for that which is most simple: The shortest most economical method of destruction is Wing Chun. An old WCK saying is: If one finds a shorter or simpler and more economical method we do not say we will then add that to WCK we say that IS WCK.. :)

It's an equation, a formula, the formula of the minimalist and it can be applied to anything IMO.

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:29 am 
In Uechi Ryu there is only so many times you can check your thumb, or tuck your butt in. There is only so much you can learn from Dan Kumite. I mean, what does it take to Master Uechi? My kata is as good as it's going to get. Does that mean i'm a Master of Uechi? Or does it mean i will never be a Master of Uechi? Why or why not?

I can't learn anything from it (uechi kata) anymore, in part because i've refined it to the point where I am satisfied with it (even though I haven't practiced it in a long time) and also, NO ONE THAT I KNOW is willing to work with me to take this style to another level. They are either afraid of being harrased by other "Masters" or believe that it is sacriliedge to deface the style. It's an absurd dilehma!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:35 pm 
Hi Tony:

“In Uechi Ryu there is only so many times you can check your thumb, or tuck your butt in. There is only so much you can learn from Dan Kumite. I mean, what does it take to Master Uechi? My kata is as good as it's going to get. Does that mean i'm a Master of Uechi? Or does it mean i will never be a Master of Uechi? Why or why not?

I can't learn anything from it (uechi kata) anymore, in part because i've refined it to the point where I am satisfied with it (even though I haven't practiced it in a long time) and also, NO ONE THAT I KNOW is willing to work with me to take this style to another level. They are either afraid of being harrased by other "Masters" or believe that it is sacriliedge to deface the style. It's an absurd dilehma!”

I think Tony that you have only touched the surface of Uechi Ryu.

I truly do not mean this disrespectfully in anyway, you have indeed successfully taken what you have been given to its limits (you are very good.)

I believe that much of what is taught (readers, please exclude your school from this statement so no offence can be created) is just a shell of Uechi Ryu.

When we are given this shell at first it is very impressive and that is because Uechi Ryu IS an impressive style and somewhere inside of us we see the potential of the style.

George has posted numerous times that the students of Uechi Ryu are to continue to develop and challenge their Uechi. He has said many times that Black Belts should NOT be doing drills just like they did as a white belt. He has run a camp for years exposing people to other styles BUT always the thread is to relate it back to Uechi Ryu. He has been for years promoting filling the shell with depth.

From what I see you have been passed the Shell of Uechi Ryu and need to fill it in with substance and depth. It is sad you have no one to work with you on this because it works far better where you have a laboratory to test things out in.

As most folks know I do not do the standard curriculum of Uechi BUT this has nothing to do with that curriculum because it is simply the base from which the deep training is to be launched so no matter what base you have you must (as George has stated) take your Uechi father.

I think the heart of taking Uechi father lies in the use of the Wauke (and deep study of body mechanics and more – to come). It is the most prominent movement in our Kata and yet it has been relegated to a mere “block.” This is not a bad place to start because it teaches good hand and arm coordination for the move but the Wauke is the most versatile move in the system.

I see the Kata as great laboratories. I also feel that the base cannot remain the same. Once you have the moves we must explore the kata much further.

TRANSITIONS!

The basic manner in learning Uechi Kata has lost the transitions and focused on the execution of individual movements. Again a base to start from – get the basic moves right NOW let us blend them into a fluid moving continuous force.

The transitions are the riches place for applications.

Transitions also recognize that in a real fight the attacker is often not directly in front o you.

Transitions lead to dealing with multiple follow up strikes and multiple attackers.

So how do we fill the shell?

Research other Chinese styles and see how they use the palm and arm movements and you will SEE the Wauke all over the place but in a very different form. I recommend starting with Xing Yi, then Bagua and then Taiji. Review some tapes (George Xu for Xing YI, John Painter for Bagua and Tim Cartmell [Effortless Combat Throws] and read on Taiji.)

Watch closely the body mechanics!!!!!!

So Tony I truly believe there is much room left in Uechi for you but (as Laird will attest) it is a very hard thing for you to do solo.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 6:36 pm 
Rick,

I hear you man.. and yeah, i'm pretty shallow about karate. I tried to get deep with the stuff and look where it got me, banished from Uetopia. All I wanted to do was ****breathe******.... wtf?

Tony
p.s.
If only God would send unto me a "Great Uechi Master" to check my thumbs and punch my stomach (while I stand there in a silly stance and take it like a man)! Then I could "jump the sword" with mystical powers and depth!

p.s.s. I've been doing Uechi since 1983 and yeah, most of it was solo.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:22 pm 
Then we have Sanseirui Bankai. The mystical "dragon" slimy move at the beginning... "Master such and such... what is the meaning of this movement"...? the great Uechi master replies, Well grasshopper, when you have gone as deep into the kata as I have, you will find that it is a Double Block! Wow Master! That is DEEEEEP! So the guy comes at you with a double punch? The old One-Two? Yes! But because you are only on the surface of Uechi Ryu, you will only block two punches... whereas I, because I am a great, deep master of karate, I will block the entire gamut of 2 punches...

So what is the difference? The Great master of Uechi is doing the same bankai as "grasshopper", his Dan test will probably be exactley alike, hell, grasshopper will probably be even better.. I dunno, it really doesn't make much sense to me, or does it.

*thinking*

ok, I think I get this whole thing now...

By putting some people in the shallow category, and others in a "deep" catagory, you can give the "masters" a lounge to hang out in and mock at all the peasents thus giving some meaning to their lives.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:41 pm 
Yeah I know what you mean Tony about the Bunkai.

When the Sanseirui Bunkai was shown everyone was running around going OHH AAHHH a Sanseirui Bunkai. They could not wait to learn it.

I, on the other hand, looked at it and saw absolutely nothing. Yes block, block – huh? No thanks.

So I sympathise.

Soooo I work on my own applications. Laird taped a class where we looked at Sanseirui applications I don’t know if he has it all on his computer yet. That is where the most recent clip of my Sanseirui came from.

I do the first move different than some of the practitioners but the same as others.

Here is one application:

Left hook comes at you.

Right short third movement of the Wauke major arm to intercept as you move in. THEN as you bring the right hand across palm up you strike to the chin. This raises the head. The as you turn the right hand back over the cut back across into Sanchin you rake it across the throat. The left hand performs a short third movement of the major arm of the Wauke to strike to the left side of the aggressor’s head and creates and opposite force movement to the right hands rake across the throat.

Here is a clip of my Sanseirui:

http://www.wilsonkarate.com/videos/rick_sanserui3.wmv

As for your last comment, you have totally confused me.

“ok, I think I get this whole thing now...

By putting some people in the shallow category, and others in a "deep" catagory, you can give the "masters" a lounge to hang out in and mock at all the peasents thus giving some meaning to their lives.”

Certainly not my intent, Tony. No idea how you came to that conclusion.

There are very few people I would put in the masters category and I still wouldn’t give them their own lounge. :wink: They have to get on the same dojo floor to stay masters. 8)

I think I am the last person you could say puts anyone on a pedestal. I don’t believe in it. :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:54 pm 
Rick Wilson wrote:
Certainly not my intent, Tony. No idea how you came to that conclusion.


Not referring to you Rick. They know who I'm talking too.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:01 pm 
Rick, what do you do about timing and rythm in your applications? As you know, it's an important aspect of application knowing "when" to actually do something. Dan Kumite doesn't cut it because there is no randomness to it (although it's ok for beginners), certainley no challenge for a Master of Uechi Ryu Karate (although, thats usually where you'll find them flexing their muscles and demonstrating their greatness, in the Kumites or punching a phonebook or something). The thing about these deep and meaningful lessons is that no one seems to have any rythym or concept of timing. Watch them in a random exercise... they knock some kid into a wall while he's holding a phonebook on his chest, but he can't do schit in a random drill, why is that? What happened to all that Superhuman Uechi Power forged trhough years of Sanchin development? Looks like it missed and fell on the floor or something.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:37 pm 
Quote:
If only God would send unto me a "Great Uechi Master" to check my thumbs
Tony I believe God created thumbs so could stick em in master wantabes eye sockets. From there we get to explore the depth of Uechi. Like making a fist and going for a walk or discovering why we might execute a turn. I mean why the hell did God create opposable thumbs if he didn’t want me to bury them in some punks eye up too the second knuckle. God knows how to have a good time man!

Quote:
and punch my stomach (while I stand there in a silly stance and take it like a man)
Every time I hear the phrase “ Take it like a man”, I envision Bubba raping a cell mate. That’s kind of how I feel about some master dweeb teeing off on my belly for free. I like the way Rick works better. He soft tests and the belly striking happens in conditioning drills, that means anyone dropping a shot on your guts is getting one back. It tends to elimate the beatings any master wantabees may wish to dish out.

Quote:
Then I could "jump the sword" with mystical powers and depth
I think the depth in sword jumping is the blade deeply embedded in the body. Why the _______(choose your favorite non approved profanity) are people training to survive a sword attack. How many Americans were cut down by swords last year?

Quote:
I've been doing Uechi since 1983 and yeah, most of it was solo.
Solo training is a tough road to follow. But In my opinion it is when you find a lot of answers. No high muckie muck spoon feeding you answers, your forced to find a few of your own. In many cases your high muckie muck is just regurgitating what he has been told and has not discovered.

I believe most of these systems were created a long time ago and some where along the line they all involved some one abusing people to discover what works and what doesn’t. I see solo training as much the same. Taking a partner from time to time to test things out will give one more answers than listening to a muckie muck who has never been their done that. These types do tell great stories about fighting tigers. :lol: They also like to tell you how your not doing Uechi or you need to go deeper. Sometimes their lack of knowledge is obvious by the BS they try to baffle you with.


Tony I’d train with you any time man! Hell maybe you can help me get more power in my lead hand hook!



Quote:
I think the heart of taking Uechi father lies in the use of the Wauke (and deep study of body mechanics and more – to come). It is the most prominent movement in our Kata and yet it has been relegated to a mere “block.” This is not a bad place to start because it teaches good hand and arm coordination for the move but the Wauke is the most versatile move in the system.
This is a profound statement in my book. I see many in Uechi practicing the movement to snatch punches out of the air. So they can throw their own long distance stepping punch. :roll: I hate to say it but that ain’t my Uechi. :lol: Always wanted to say that. :lol:

Actual I believe the essence of the style is buried in the wauke. It’s our chi sao . Uechi is full of sticking, throws and locks and much of it is in this movement. I see the forearm as a striking tool and not a blocking tool. Much that is initially missed in the wauke can be explored when one decides not to train at what we affectionaly refer to as “run away ryu” range. When you take the wauke inside it becomes a versatile tool. Close with it do not retreat with it!

I think the wauke takes Uechi from a striking art to a trapping locking and controlling art that then strikes. Uechi is real effective at the clinch range, but you have to play at this range to explore it. Many schools do not. I think they are missing out on some good stuff…. Close close close!

Not dissing those who don’t just recommending exploring the telephone booth.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:54 pm 
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One cannot learn combat through kata.

Kata is a framework, a foundation and no matter how many times one does a kata, no matter for how long, it will not teach you how to fight, even IF the kata was actually understood in all its myriad component parts and lessons.

No matter how much effort and work is put into building the foundation of a house one cannot live in the foundation, the foundation is not a house or a home...

So why can't a kata teach one how to fight?

Tony writes:

The Bronze Dago wrote:
they knock some kid into a wall while he's holding a phonebook on his chest, but he can't do schit in a random drill, why is that?


This is because combat is about adaptation. It is about a dynamic interaction of two or more combatants like a conversation. Having students play a kata over and over is akin to having a child reciting the alphabet and nursery rhymes over and over again alone with no human interaction. After many years of doing this will the child be able to converse? Not a chance..

This is because the child will have no idea what the words mean, how to use the language to create new sentences and interact with another person in a dynamic conversation. In the end the idea was not to mimic speech but to fully understand how to USE speech as a tool for effective communication. The random letters, words or random phrases without any context are quite meaningless and can have no meaning without an established context that defines grammar vocabulary and finally meaning, something that only has a context when someone else exists to converse with.

So not only must the kata be understood but even then they can only serve as a vague starting point, a base from which to build on. Moreover if the kata are not fully understood then 'filling them up' with 'stuff' - random applications that one chooses will likely have little or no bearing on the original intent of the kata nor will the 'stuff' used to fill it up likely be properly reinforced by the kata since there was no clear connection between the two to start with.

In WCK the forms are just a baseline for learning. The main part of the system does not end there it begins there. The question is where do you go from there?

You could take a student and teach them the first two forms of WCK and then tell them what each of the moves are for in application and have the student train the form for 20 years and guess what? They will have no idea how to use the stuff - not a clue - they will not have any skill in applying the tools, the moves the techniques the concepts or anything beyond the most elementary elements of hitting or use of fists, and that's assuming they know what the moves are, if they don't well then it's even more hopeless.

The problem lies in the missing context, there is no progressive feedback, no stimulus response training, using this base material to solve problems in a progressive, adaptive and fluid manner and context that moves the student through the levels of expressing the grammar of the art in a free and natural environment.

Providing context is critical. This must be accomplished with a visual and tactile force training platform filled with problems that shows the student how to use the right tools of the system to solve the right problems at the right time.

This must be the main focus of training, putting all the tools to work with a common thread that is a real strategy within a context sensitive environment, that clearly trains one how, when and where the different parts system fit into the RANDOM equation of combat, something that rehearsed patterns cannot do.

In this way each component or element of the system is not recorded in the brain alone but progressively with the correct visceral experience that triggers the correct response within the student at the proper time without thought. This is adapting; Something that can only happen when we are PART of the whole not alone AS a whole as in kata. Only in this way can one hope to bring these dead air patterns we call kata to life effectively in the chaos of combat.

_________________
Shaolin
M Y V T K F
"Receive what comes, stay with what goes, upon loss of contact attack the line" – The Kuen Kuit


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:52 am 
Laird, where do these people come from Man? Why do they flock to Uechi Ryu? My father was in the Shorin Ryu group back in the 60's and early 70's and he doesn't fantasize about this technique or that technique... he's nothing at all like some of these weenies that Uechi Ryu has.

BTW, Jim, Laird, what is "Chi Sao"? I'm looking at a video I got called "explosive Chi Sao" by Gary Lam (wing chun dude?) and it's pretty cool! He keeps saying Chi Sao and I have no idea what He is talking about.


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